A conversation with the founder and president of XEODesign.

Nicole Lazzaro: rnOkay, good, so I’m Nicole Lazzaro and I’m president and founder ofrnXEODesign.

Question: What do you and your company do on a day-to-dayrnbasis?

Nicole Lazzaro: rnSure.  Well I make gamesrnmore fun, so I’m the leading expert on emotion and the fun of games and I workrnwith companies, everyone from EA to Sony to Ubisoft to PlayFirst to make theirrngames more engaging.  EssentiallyrnI’ve for the past 20 years I’ve studied how to make the screen you know morernengaging.

Question: What are the major changes you’ve seen in thernvideo game world during your career?

Nicole Lazzaro: rnThere has been an enormous amount of changes, which has been reallyrnrewarding because back in the year 2000, sort of at the turn of this century, Irnhad this revelation on top of a temple in Egypt.  I was standing on a temple in Dendera looking out over therndesert.  It was a hot day and Irnreached down for my canteen to get that last sip of water when there at my feetrnsomeone had carved a game board and I thought, wow, you know, two people hadrnstood where I stood and thought to pass the time with a game.  And I wondered, what were theirrnfeelings?  What were theirrnemotions?  What engaged them inrnthat activity you know 2,000 years ago? rnAnd then what would they think of? rnHow would they respond to the games we play today?  Then putting on my future hat thinkingrnabout well what kinds of engagement? rnWhat kinds of games will we play say in the year 2020?  And it was then that I noticed that thernkinds of game experiences that I wanted to have were going to have to…  The industry was going to have to gornthrough a significant number of changes to capture that same amount of play andrnengagement.  In a sense that set mernon this train of research for the past 10 years to look at what creates… whyrnpeople play games and what makes games fun because if you think about it sortrnof like Newton watching the apple fall, emotions have this invisible pull onrnhuman action and it’s present if you see you know in any kind of game play, butrnif you look at the games that I work on in the industry they have thousands ofrnrules and maybe a handful of emotions, but if you look at a group of kidsrnplaying you know you see the whole pantheon, the entire pantheon of humanrnemotions coming from the game with a single rule.  You know, tag. rnYou’re it.  So it’s beenrnreally wonderful over the past 10 years to share with the game industry hundredsrnand thousands of people who have downloaded our whitepapers and our research tornlook at the whole spectrum of games evolving, so we’ve saw the entrance of arnlot of… the mechanics of easy fun with Wii, you know that exploration and rolernplay.  We’ve got new kinds of gamesrnthat are both educational and good for you in a sense, so there is a lot of yournknow Brain Age and you know people playing Dance, Dance Revolution to losernweight.  People playing eco gamesrnnow to you know make the world a better place and then social gaming is huge…rnis a huge trend and we see that in something we call people fun that wherernpeople really experience more emotions the more that they connect through gamernplay and so that’s a really interesting trend. 

So we’ve seen essentially the industry go from what was arnvery small percentage of the whole population, roughly about 15%, this hardcorernmarket.  We’re not starting finallyrnto see the games jump the chasm to a more of a mass market product, so if yournknow “Crossing the Chasm” by Malcolm Gladwell that you get these new kinds ofrnplayers entering the market space. rnThey want different products. rnThey want different kinds of interaction and so now that is what we’rernseeing with the games being produced by again, companies like Playfish andrnZynga and, you know, Playdom.  ThernMafia Wars of the world, the Farmvilles of the world, all of those are reallyrnhelping people engage in social interaction and it’s that social interactionrnthat they actually enjoy more than the game itself.  In fact, if you see people play at… you know in the samernroom you’ll see more emotions, a wider variety of emotions, more intense emotionsrnthan people playing the same game in different rooms and so what we’re helpingrnour clients do is take those you know multiplayer interactions that mightrnhappen in the real world to put them into game mechanics that make, you know, online play, you know, all that much more engaging.

Question: What makes a game fun? 

Nicole Lazzaro: rnYeah, so what I was inspired to do is to really dig down into what makesrnthings fun.  You know why do wernplay games?  So what I did was Irnlooked across games, so I studied everything from Halo to Tetris, peoplernplaying at home, school and work, young and old, all the platforms, crossrngender and I noticed that there were a lot of similarities between what thernfavorite… people… player’s favorite moments in games were and so what I did wasrnI collected those moments on videotape and then I used Paul Ekman’s facialrnaction coding, simplified it for games to measure their emotionalrnresponses.  So there is sevenrnemotions you can measure in the face, others you can measure in the body andrnwhat I did is I took those favorite moments in games and did a cluster analysisrnand it turns out that they group into you know four roughly categories ofrnemotion and then looking at those emotions I looked at well what were thernsimilarities of the types of decisions players were making.  What kinds of play styles?  What kind of play mechanics wererninvolved?  And that’s how we camernup with the four keys to fun.  Sornthat’s our model with essentially that’s basically the research says is thatrngames create engagement in essentially four ways.  There is the hard fun of challenge and mastery, thernfrustration that leads to what we call fiero, that yes, I won you know wherernyou get the boss monster.  There isrnthis wonderful feeling in the body that’s on personal accomplishment.  You know usability, making things easyrnto use won’t get you there at that emotion at all and in fact you have to feelrnfrustrated and so frustrated you’re about ready to throw the controller throughrnthe window.  If then at that pointrnyou win that’s when you get that feeling like yes, we really did it.  Very, very powerful emotion and playersrnwill play hours of games, both hardcore and casual gamers will play hours tornget that kind of feeling. 

And then we noticed that well it wasn’t just about thernpoints and scoring you know like basketball.  It’s fun to shoot… rnYou know it’s fun to shoot hoops for score, but it’s also just fun tornjust shoot hoops right.  You knowrnit wouldn’t be fun if the basketball hoop were like this big you know.  You know it’s nice that it’s that smallrnright and so it makes it… it makes it more challenging, but players also likernother things like just dribbling the ball is fun or playing without a score andrnso there is this easy fun that goes along with the hard fun, so there is thernhard fun of challenge and mastery. rnThe easy fun is more about exploration and role play, storytelling.  We get mechanics involving ambiguityrnand detail, so in the Sims you know you can put the Sims in your pool and thenrnpull out the ladders to see what happens. rnYou can drive a racetrack backwards.  In Grand Theft Auto you can go from point A to point B on arnmission.  The hard fun of the game,rnright, but then at any point in time you can actually also they give you likernon Improv Theater they give you a plate glass window.  They give you freeway exit ramp, parking meters and it’s uprnto you as the player to figure out how those interact and so with that kind ofrnmechanic we really…  they’re veryrndifferent type of…  They’re veryrndifferent types of interaction that were going.  And what we noticed is that with the four keys is thatrnbestselling games tend to have three out of the four and players wouldn’t dornjust one.  They tended to alsornwithin a 20 minute session have three out of the four that they played andrntheir favorites were three out of… rnyou know roughly three out of the four.  So that’s hard fun, frustration or fiero.  That’s easy fun with curiosity, wonderrnand surprise.  Wonder is this greatrnemotion that actually adults feel very rarely, so that’s wonderful that gamesrnand movies you know can give it to us, but games especially. 

Then the third one is what we call serious fun, so in easyrnfun you get a lot of feedback for you know car, plate glass window, see whatrnhappens.  In serious fun it’srnactually all about the reward.  Sornhow do you feel before, during and after? rnSo we find players play to blow off frustration at their boss or atrntheir teacher.  They also playrnthough for you know the feeling of getting smarter or of you know creating… yournknow making a difference in the world. rnThere is people playing again Brain Age to lose weight, Dance, DancernRevolution to you know…  I’m sorry,rnBrain Age to get smarter and Dance, Dance Revolution to lose weight, but wernalso see stuff that really represents who they are, so there is a lot of…  There is about to be a real surge inrneco games, which we are actually making one, which we can talk about in a bitrnthat… our game Tilt and that allow players to express their values in thernworld, so it’s not just about playing games as a separate, but actually how itrnreflects on them and what they value, what their motives are, what they likernabout and want to see happen.  Sornthat’s serious fun.  That’srnexcitement and relaxation, a lot of other emotions, repetition, rhythm.  You know music can get into that.  We’re using the fun of games to do realrnwork often.  Serious gaming where you’rerndoing a fire fighting simulator or a nuclear you know power plant simulator tornlearn.  That’s all part of seriousrnfun.  

And then the last form of engagement is people fun andrnpeople fun is really, it’s an amazing area.  You’ve got emotion. rnThe emotion that we can measure is amusement, so laughter, so you canrnlaugh and whenever you see laughter then you know that you’re getting people tornengage with each other and with people fun we have a lot of mechanics, sort ofrnsocial mechanics that create social bonding, that bring people together.  Everyone has got a friend for examplernthat can make you do the roll on the floor laughing thing, right?  And when you can actually then get uprnand breathe again you actually feel closer to that person and so what isrninteresting about that is that there is not a disconnect between…  I mean it actually doesn’trnseparate.  The game doesn’trnseparate.  It actually pulls peoplerntogether and what we get there is we get the ability to actually create socialrnbonds.  I really hate the wordrnsocial capital.  A lot of folks inrnthe social media space talk about, oh, well, we’re building social capital whenrnin fact what you’re really doing is you’re weaving the social fabric betweenrnpeople. 

So some of the factors that go into it are creating socialrntokens for example, so if you have mechanics in your game that could then bernmutated or changed in a certain way and pass from player to player that canrnactually increase the social bonding that goes on in the game.  So if I give you a health pack I feelrngenerous.  You feel gratitude andrnthen you know someone else might feel… see that action and say oh, elevation,rnwow, human kindness and then later on in the game you know that situation mayrnbe reversed or you might experience schadenfreude, which is you know thernpleasure when someone you… when one of your rivals you know experiencesrnmisfortune or Naches, which is this pleasure and pride when someone you helprnsucceeds.  So when you mentorrnsomeone and they succeed you feel this emotion around them.  So if you think about what we can dornjust by adding these different verbs, adding new verbs to the games we canrnactually change what we call an emotion profile, so just like wine or chocolaternhas this flavor profile.  You knowrnyou have a nose and a head and nice long finish.  Games and other entertainment produce a series of sensationsrnin the body that can be intentionally designed.  They already create… and even media products, other mediarnproducts create… social media for example, creates… sort of have certainrnemotional signatures in the body if you will and you can actually intentionallyrndesign them to create different things that really go with the task atrnhand. 

So for example, the social media platforms like Facebook andrnTwitter all of them have a number of different verbs that really match thisrnprofile of friendship and getting closer. rnSo for example, the bestselling games on Facebook you know are the onesrnthat are about people, plants and… you know people, plants and pets okay andrnall those have wonderful social emotions. rnYou know Mafias.  You’ve gotrnFarmville, gardening and you’ve got you know Pet Society or you know the AnimalrnCrossing kind of clones and all of those really revolve around friendship.  You also have verbs, so the verb inrnFacebook of poke, so by adding that feature poke, that kind of is like wellrnthat’s a poke in the ribs maybe, so that’s friendly, so it creates a little bitrnof what we call amici..  You knowrnit’s Italian for this friendly kind of feeling, but what we do can is with thatrnis you can then actually by adding these verbs or taking them out you canrnadjust this emotion profile. 

Same thing with Twitter, so Twitter actually has a very… arnbig challenge for it right now because it’s got a follow you, follow me kind ofrngame going on, so you have underneath your avatar photo you’ve created a gamernbecause by putting that hard fun, that score, how many followers I havernunderneath my headshot, well that kind of encourages certain behavior becausernpeople will behave to maximize that score because that is what a score does,rnright, so what you do then is friend as many people who then friend you back andrnso then your score goes up, but then what happens to your feed of yourrnfollowing, if you’re following you know a million people are you reallyrnfollowing any of them?  Can yournreally use it to you know stay up or really touch base with them or is it justrnyou know a lot of people have zero tweets and you know a  thousand followers.  It’s like well what is that allrnabout?  And so in a sense thatrnvibe, putting a score there players actually broke the game.  They broke the game a little bit and sornthe added addition of lists and obviously you know some other mechanics likernre-tweeting and DM-ing and stuff, direct messaging and stuff that all helpsrnbind the…  you know bind the game…rnthe game that is Twitter, bind that social experience together.  So you can see how all these actionsrncreate… have a sense of cloud of emotion around them and that’s what makes thernexperience really fill out.  Justrnlike a film would with story and character we’re actually painting in a sensernthe UI.  We’re actually paintingrnthe experience with emotion and attention and essentially by intentional designrnyou can actually color it any emotion that you choose if you know what verb tornuse.

Question: What kinds of video games are being designed tornappeal specifically to girls and women?

Nicole Lazzaro: rnWell I think that the experiences that are being designed are definitelyrnmuch more casual.  In our researchrnwhat is interesting is that it’s not so much the mechanic, the type of choicernthat you make in the game or the type of challenge, but the theme tends to havernmore of a gender skew and what is interesting with…  I’m glad you brought up the gender issue because there isrnsome really interesting stuff.  Notrnall guys want to have a Rambo fantasy. rnSome kind of get tired of it after a little while.  A lot of guys like sports, but notrneverybody likes sports and if you think about what… if you get two groups andrnit can be divided by gender or age, you know average **** time, amount ofrnviolence in the experience you have to remember that that average is an averagernof what?  Well it’s an average ofrnindividuals and those individuals actually aren’t all on that same line.  Even if there is a statistical differencernbetween the two you actually then have two normal distribution curves and sornthere is a lot of guys in the girl’s range say and a lot of girls in the guy’srnrange and what people tend to forget with the… with 50 years of marketingrnexperience behind us now we tend to jump right into the gender as like oh, thisrnis the defining rule, this is how we make our games better because we’re goingrnto target this by gender.  It turnsrnout though if we put everything that people like about games and we just sortrnof dump it on the table okay and in one hand we gather everything that guysrnlike and only guys like in one hand and if we gather the other hand andrneverything girls like and only woman like in the other well then what do werndo?  Well the game industry well itrnmakes a game for guys and a game for girls, right?  Well what are we forgetting?  It turns out what we’re forgetting is everything that’srnstill on the table, right and it turns out in terms of our research everythingrnthat is still on the table is what players like the most about games and sornwhen we think about how to you know use gender segmentation as a way to makerngames more fun it’s actually a pretty slippery slope because if you’re lookingrnat a lot of games that have mass appeal you know it’s like 40, 60, you know,rnmale and female and so… and games are almost all played in mixed gendered environments.  So it’s not surprising that the mostrnpopular games like World of Warcraft or the Simms or Myst, and we’ve worked onrnthree of the Myst series, is that they actually draw… They actually draw fromrnboth pools.  You know there isrnmechanics and situations and themes that appeal to… that appeal to both.

But in terms of casual games what we find is that there is arnlot of very interesting obviously theme stuff, so the whole restaurantrnsimulations, Diner Dash, we’ve worked with PlayFirst on everything since DinerrnDash II pretty much on has come through our lab and what we’ve noticed is thatrnthere are a number of mechanics and it’s not that they… women absolutely likernhard fun.  You might think thatrnit’s the guys that want the real sweaty, kind of like intense experience andrnthe girls want this either very social or very easy time.  Not true at all.  I mean women love as well as men, theyrnreally love to work hard for their game. rnThe harder they work the more rewarding it feels and so it’s not surprisingrnthat people will…  You know yournplay Tetris on time mode and it’s you do work up a sweat.  But what we don’t see is we don’t see arnlot of complexity in the controls, so you know women do tend to invest lessrntime in learning a thing.  Theyrnalso are a newer entrance into the market, so what correlates a lot more withrncasual and core kind of games is like, you know, how long you’ve been playingrngames and how often you play because games for the hardcore market have reallyrnscaled up in terms of adding additional features over time and the hardcorernmarket really has perfected, you know, the sort of five core games.  There’s five core games that theyrnperfected, whereas the casual space is much more open.

Question: How have you attempted to integrate social valuesrninto video games?

Nicole Lazzaro: rnAbsolutely.  Yeah, so Tiltrnis a game, and basically it’s Tilt Flip's Adventure in 1.5 Dimensions and it’srnan experience on the iPhone.  Whatrnwe’ve done is the story starts with Flip who crawls out of this polluted oozernthat was once Shady Glen and decides to take on this toxic green blight cloudrnby eating carbon out of the air and gathering water and seeds to replant thernforest and Flip is just a tiny little lizardy, you know, kind of froggyrnchameleon kind of character and can really only move and, you know, in fourrndirections, so it can only have four positions and what we did was we createdrnthis, so all you do to…  There arernno buttons in the game.  All you dornis tilt the game.  You just tiltrnthe iPhone to control it and Flip gathers, you know, water and seeds and eatsrnpollution, and what we found is that we wanted to really capitalize on… or givernpeople the opportunity to express themselves kind of like the Powers of 10rnvideo, if you seen that, IAMS animation where you go from really small to beingrnlike way out towards Saturn and then go back down again and we wanted to givernplayers the experience of the power of tiny actions, so if I just you know tornmake a simple choice between say paper and plastic you know today or I turn offrnmy light switch then you actually… those… you want to see how those decisionsrnadd up to a global experience of play and so we’ve got a single player layerrnfor the game where you go through 12 scenes or 60 levels to the game and thenrnyou can…  all of your Tilt pointsrnare geo-coded to where you can earn them. rnSo you can actually have on a global scale we can have differentrncontinents and different regions you know competing and cooperating againstrneach other, so we you know North America going against China and then in thernreal world we take it one step further where you can actually take…  do an action in the real world like yournchange your light bulbs and you or… you know you might use your… reduce yourrncarbon footprint or you know and start a recycling program or an educationalrnprogram and if you were to share that with… on social media with your friendsrnwith the tag for the game the game will actually scrape that and you earnrncredit for it in the game.  So yourncan basically do stuff in the real world and through the miracle of socialrnmedia you actually do better in the game. rnSo we take it all the way up to that… to a real world experience to makernthe world a better place and it’s all through game play.

Question: How are mobile platforms changing video games?

Nicole Lazzaro: rnYeah, the iPhone and other… rnThe iPhone is taking gaming to a whole other level of play because it’srnalways with you.  It always withrnyou and there are a lot of new sensors, so you’ve got accelerometer andrngeocoding, that sort of thing, and more importantly I think is it’s also socialrnand so that social interaction that through game play because it has yourrncontact list on it for example, you know, being able to bridge out to yourrnfriends and play together in these micro payments of time if you will is goingrnto be a huge thing for the iPhone. rnAnd I say this even though I invented the very first game to use thernaccelerometer.  The very firstrnversion of Tilt I designed with Joe Hewitt at iPhone dev camp about a weekrnafter the iPhone came out and we… rnIt was really fun because we just two web pages, one YouTube video andrnyet we got 250,000 visits because we mapped the mechanics of the game into thernnew control set of the iPhone and then also it created that sense of wonder,rnthat curiosity, wonder and surprise and when people who had an iPhone…  They didn’t have an app store, no APIrnor anything like that, so they could play with the things that came on therndevice, but if they hopped over to our web page they could have a whole newrnexperience to show to their friends. rnThere was a lot of over the shoulder play as well. 

And so, you know, just sort of wrapping back in what we’verngot is this whole now set of games and it’s not just the control.  It’s not just the micro form that fitsrnin your hand, but it’s that connectedness and the fact that I canrnasynchronously play with my friends again to sort of weave more social fabricrnwith them.  That’s what is going tornbe the real killer app if you will you know for the iPhone.  And in fact, you know, with the new…rnthe newly announced iPad, I predict that e-reading isn’t going to be therndominant… You know, reading your newspaper is not going to be the dominant userncase at all.  The dominant thing isrnactually going to be gaming and two player gaming though.  I don’t think many people will, yournknow, hold that device that that’s large you know in front of them you know forrnthat long to let’s say drive a car. rnWhat will happen though is I could put it down you know in between usrnand then we have a… then we have a game board between us and then kind of likernthat Star Wars chess scene, you know, in Episode Three or whatever.  You can actually make moves and we canrnshare that environment or we have it in our lap and we have this Battleshiprnkind of experience where I can see some of your screen, but not.  That’s going to be… For the first timernwe’re going to have real face-to-face electronic gaming.  I can’t wait.  We’re going to be obviously taking Tilt to the iPad, and Irncan’t wait to see what developers come up with.

Question: In what surprising new ways will video games bernused in the future?

Nicole Lazzaro: rnAbsolutely.  Well I thinkrnwhat our mission right now is you know with launching Tilt and the consultingrnthat we do with our clients companies is really unlocking you know humanrnpotential and improving quality of life through play and it’s not…  I mean there isn’t a game in the worldrnthat doesn’t teach and there is no play style even that doesn’t teach, so therernis this very human, not a human need, but I mean it’s just a humanrnfacility.  This play experience isrnpart of what we do.  So we’rernactually going to see, work and play get a lot closer together, so we’re goingrnto be playing more at work.  We’rernactually going to be…  you knowrnwe’re actually going to have work that feels more like play, so I predict thatrnnot only do we have…  We’re goingrnto have more robust you know simulations, training simulation games.  You know so if I hand you a nuclearrnreactor you know you can play with it. rnYou can train to… You can do management training that way.  You can do all kinds of social…  In fact, World of Warcraft, if you’rernguild leader, you know, you’re learning a lot about management… managing otherrnpeople, so I think we’re going to see a lot of stuff happening in games comingrnthrough.  And I think I’m reallyrnhopeful for…  This is why I’mrnsharing a lot of my research, is that what we’re really hopeful for is to seernhuge changes in the American workplace and you know actually all around thernworld because when I go in and you know I’m trained to read emotion on people’srnfaces what I see and I see that and I see their work styles and their you knowrnwhat tasks they can actually do and you know I’m in awe and in horror of what Irnsee when I go into the average office space because the work there is so…  I mean it’s so ill-suited to the taskrnat hand.  You know, if this were arnzoo or a kindergarten, you know, Child Protective Services or, you know, thernHumane Society would be there… down there, you know, to close it down in aboutrnan hour because the work environment, the physical space, the types of tasks,rnthe emotions around those tasks are totally ill-suited to accomplishing therntask at hand and so by really understanding play and what motivates people andrngames are self motivating systems, so self motivating systems we’re going tornsee that self motivation permeate throughout everything from word processingrnto, you know, the way that your copier operates.

We’re going to see not only that we’re going to see theserngame mechanics you know embedded in the software that we use, you know in thernphysical devices that we touch like, you know, a copy machine, but we’ll alsornsee it in this business structure as well, so we’re going to see the way thatrngive feedback, the way that we give out tasks, the way that we manage folks isrnactually going to be a lot more responsive to game style kind of thinkingrnbecause in a game what do you have to have?  Well Sid Meyer says it’s got to be interesting choices,rnright, so you got to have that, but then you also…  You know I think that what we do in games is really wernsimplify the world.  You know wernsuspend some consequences.  Yournknow that gives us a little free action and then we then enhance the feedbackrnand enhancing the feedback and enhancing the reward, that easy fun and thatrnserious fun really can then motivate folks, motivate people to explore andrnextend themselves and when they accomplish something hard that they couldn’t dornbefore then that hard fun comes in and you feel much more well-rounded as arnperson and much more…  you know,rnyou feel much more… that sense of accomplishment and, you know, really usefulness, you know, in society at large.

And actually just riffing off of that a bit, I think thatrnalso the other way that games are changing the way we are as a society is thatrngames have multivariant input, so especially simulation games, so you’ve gotrnmultiple things coming in and you have the ability to make a lot ofrnchanges.  So in a sense simulationrngames are really… have the opportunity to change the world, to really educatedrnus as global citizens because what are simulation games are they are a… theyrnhave multivariant inputs and multi variant outputs, so when I play Sim City Irnplay a city manager and I, you know, make decisions, you know, and I can makerndecisions that related to Godzilla or I can make decisions to earthquake orrnfire or I can, you know, build it up, but when you’re done with Sim City yournactually know a little bit more about that.  You know more of that world and what we really need rightrnnow are people who can understand multivariant systems to fight things likernglobal warming, AIDS, all of these problems.  We’ve pretty much dealt with a lot of the low-hanging fruitrnhere, and so you know I think that games play a really serious role, a reallyrnimportant role in elevating up our thinking to that next level of play, and Irnthink if we can do that the world will definitely be a better place.

Question: What was your favorite video game as a kid?

NicolernLazzaro:  Okay, yeah, yeah,rnyeah, yeah.  So I think growing uprnas a kid one of my favorite…  As arnkid the thing that had me drop the most quarters was Star Wars, the Star WarsrnFlight Sim.  I love the feeling ofrnflying.  I love that wholernexperience.  I felt like I was this,rnyou know, fighter pilot and I was you know racing and I never got past levelrnseven, but you know I loved the way the audio came in.  I was in that universe, even though itrnwas only wireframe at the time.  Itrnwas a wireframe kind of, you know, flight sim and that experience allowed me tornextend my love of the whole Star Wars universe, which again was this…  you know this inspirational fantasy, sornit really connected it you know for me. rnAnd I think that would be... rnYeah, that would definitely be my favorite game. 

Recorded on February 16, 2010
Interviewed by Austin Allen