Big Think

Matt Pidlysny on January 19, 2009, 11:50 AM

Because the God of Christianity, Jewish and Muslim lore is actually the son of the devil? Not that he was the devil when his son was born, but he was put there.

I don’t take those religions very seriously, but indeed there is some truth to it.

HerbieP on January 19, 2009, 1:03 PM

“The majority of the world is Christian, therefore the majority of the world believe in God.” I’m not sure if you rely on this as a part of your argument or not. However truth is not a matter of how many people agree on a matter. After all at one point Christians were a tiny minority. If they had thought that the majority must be correct Christianity would never have got off the ground.

The rest of your argument appears to be a version of Pascal’s wager and you are therefore left with the question ‘which version of god?’ There are many interpretations of the christian god alone. what if I pick the wrong one?

You are also assuming that belief is a choice. Surely you can’t just choose to believe something. Otherwise I could just choose to believe that the Norse pantheon is true.

Lastly you have a lot to lose by accepting irrational belief. Rationality as a useful tool has to be abandoned to start with…

Matt Pidlysny on January 19, 2009, 1:43 PM

Complaint: Irrationality
Solution: Rationality

I really don’t need to say more than that.

Nosmo King on January 19, 2009, 3:07 PM

Yes, this is a form of Pascal’s Wager.

Additionally, Christianity is a rational belief whilst , for example, Judaism is not. More Christians/Catholics than Jews.

Musycks on January 19, 2009, 3:39 PM

Gillon… Xtianity is just another form of Judaism, so given you worship the same God, I’m not sure why you draw the distinction.
The catholics got rid of the idea of purgatory recently as well.
If you worship this one god, then what’s wrong with all the other gods people believe in? why don’t you believe in them?

Nosmo King on January 19, 2009, 3:43 PM

Because the majority of people are Christian. Usually, majority wins, if not, oh well.

Musycks on January 19, 2009, 4:17 PM

Wow… if not, oh well? I’m assuming you’re young Gillon, and good on you for getting involved here. You might need to do some broader research if you’re up for it. This site has some interesting conversations for you to follow.
I’m an athiest, so I don’t believe in your or any other gods. I believe that all that is good and bad within mankind is only from us. We have to accept we are an evolutionary
anomaly in the universe, as much as we can see so far, and take responsibilities for our own actions, and find meaning to life beyond the old superstitions and supernatural myths.
Jesus most likely did not even exist as a person, Paul wrote many thousands of words about him, never once mentioning a ‘life’ story.. no Virgin Birth, no miracles, no slaughter of the innocents, no 3 wise men, no Bethlehem etc…
The other bits of the story were filled in generations later, to an audience hungry for detail. As far as historians are concerned Jesus is as real as Robin Hood or Hercules.
Just because a lot of people ‘believe’ something does not make it a fact. For many centuries the majority of people believed the earth was flat.

keep walking Gillon and good luck.

dennis ilic on January 19, 2009, 4:32 PM

Which definition of God? There is a thread of mine where I invited people to define their God in 100 words or less.
I was quite impressed with the amount of different definitions people came up with. There are at least 70 different people posting their definition.

Which proved one point:
when a person speaks about god, they are not necessarily speaking of the same God you are thinking of.
Most of the time, they are not.

HerbieP on January 19, 2009, 5:51 PM

Gillon if you make a claim such as “Christianity is a rational belief whilst , for example, Judaism is not.” you really need to justify it.

The phrase itself ‘rational belief’ is an oxymoron. If something is rational it doesn’t require belief. Standard Christianity believes in many suprnatural things. The supernatural by definition is outside of the rational. Explain how christianity is rational.

Giesela Dohrmann on January 19, 2009, 9:12 PM

Since the existence of god (any god(s)in any shape or size)cannot be proven by reason, it is not rational at all to believe in a god. One can only have faith in god even if this seems to reason to be absurd.
Lets face it reason has no place in faith, the same applies to love, actually.

God and religion are inventions of human consciousness and the abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of men, is a demand for real happiness.

and as for majorities,
hey, and a “million” people can be wrong too
it wouldn’t be the first time…

sciencesaves on January 20, 2009, 8:25 AM

Gillon, Welcome to the discussions.

Religionists claims that “a majority of people on this earth believe in some form of god” is one of the illusions that perpetuates unfounded nonsense. You’re correct that a majority of people will say that they believe, but in reality, they have major issues and doubts concerning religions many exaggerated claims and false promises. Enter the fear factor, wishful thinking, and sheep mentality. Viola! Another frustrated “believer”.

Knowledge is the key to understanding.
If a person doesn’t comprehend how and why religion came about, it’s difficult to
be strong and ignore the primitive notions.

Another good example of why we should disregard statements that base truth on the mindsets of a majority is the fact that a great majority of ancient folks believed that the sun was in orbit around the earth, and refused to think it was possible that they were wrong.

pokój! on January 20, 2009, 11:14 AM

I’m not a fan of the majority rules mentality, especially when it comes to religion and belief. Thats what causes most of the problems, people don’t seek G-d for themselves, they listen to what others have to say instead. Understandably, though, if you are raised in a specific tradition…its much harder to break that mold. In my observations, major religions have done far more to turn people away from G-d than the nay-saying voices of ‘heathens’.

Gillon, I pray that you seek G-d in your own heart, and spend some time alone with Him/Her/It, however you regard… You seem a bit too accepting, if not naive, in regard to the claims of others.
———

I agree that from any standpoint but the believers, belief seems irrational. Heck, it continues to seem irrational… that is because G-d comes through in experience, from within, not from a prayer cloth or a vial of water or the mad ravings of the deceivers of the weak of mind and heart…

It is also irrational to expect an unbeliever to accept G-d as a possibility just by preaching to them… or even in casual discussions, such as here…

The concern shouldn’t be with belief in any specific religion, you should follow your heart in all things. Jesus isn’t contained in anyone’s shiny metal box on the altar; G-d isn’t bought with three small monthly payments…

Shalom, and ripple on

Musycks on January 20, 2009, 4:03 PM

pokoj… good to see you mate, and glad someone is at least supporting part of Gillons notion, just for his/her sake!

Of course what religion you accept is purley a matter of historical/cultural programming, then your experiences are viewed through this prism and able to be interpreted every which way. Being that all human cultures are not surprisingly similar, there are a few variations but the same themes in all humankinds attempts to come to term with the environment.

No god ever appeared before a man and said ‘here I am’. Man invented the stories and said, ‘oh there you are’.

Keep warm rippler.

Matt Pidlysny on January 20, 2009, 6:05 PM

Knowledge is the key to understanding.

Gillon, if I could make a suggestion, ONLY follow this credo if you’re looking for the truth. You know why I’m not posting anything else from his post? It’s because it’s subjective, and thanks to some people I met recently I realized that this is crucial in understanding anything.

The problem with SS, and he won’t admit it so I will FOR him, is that he lives in his own little world. He does not live in anyone else’s world, and shames the imagination like all of it was the work of a fool. It is a shame he has not experienced what can be experienced, or listen to it for that matter.

I’m saying, Gillon, do not EVER listen to a close minded individual. He has lots of room for potential with his brainpower, but he plays the fool crying out in the street with prejudice for the cow that bumped into him, if I may. The now prejudiced fool doesn’t care why the cow walked there, and will spin so many reasons to be mad at it, even just for walking.

He won’t even understand that, so I hope YOU still have some free thought left in your brain to fully understand what it is you’re looking at. That doesn’t mean just say “Christianity is best GO GOD!” but it does imply saying “I wonder how God fits into science,”.

You might find exactly what you hoped wasn’t there.

pokój! on January 20, 2009, 7:58 PM

‘Sup mus… how you been…

“Of course what religion you accept is purley a matter of historical/cultural programming, then your experiences are viewed through this prism and able to be interpreted every which way.”

Not if you take it into your own hands to seek on your own… we are no longer constrained, as in the past, with only having one religion to follow… our cultures are blending to the point that examples of, and information on every existing and past religion is available. And religion aside, there are vast majorities of ’spiritual’ texts, and various arts have blended and incorporated from many influences. Truth is found in the most surprising places sometimes, and more often than not these discoveries can strike at your heartstrings more powerfully that picking up the pre-approved texts of and major religion because of this. I could have gone on many paths in the past 10 years or so since I’ve started believing. Yes, I was raised Catholic, but if you were more familiar with my upbringing and eventual rejection, it is even more amasing that I still believe in anything. I never truly believed any of it when I was young anyway. Though I’ve always felt G-d as a part of my life, I ignored It for a very long time, and only came back to some form of Christianity through putting the pieces together. I once wanted to become a Buddhist monk…

“Being that all human cultures are not surprisingly similar, there are a few variations but the same themes in all humankinds attempts to come to term with the environment.”

Well for the most part there are Eastern and Western… both with their offshoots and similarities, both with those who refuse to grow out of the archaic means of tradition and worship and practice and belief in order to realise that belief is ever-evolving…

“No god ever appeared before a man and said ‘here I am’. Man invented the stories and said, ‘oh there you are’.”

You can’t honestly validate either of those claims, so that’s kind of a moot point…

—
"He said “Tell me all your thoughts on G-d, ‘cause I’d really like to meet Her…”

Peace out music man…

sciencesaves on January 21, 2009, 8:53 AM

Hi pokoj, Well thought out, and as usual, you make some good points. You seem to be the most rational believer on here.

res, I see that your level of belief in something no one else seems to understand causes anger and frustration, so you discount any attempts to point out how ridiculous your unique claims are.

Your perception of reality isn’t normal, and seems self-serving at best.

Those who “know” me on here realize that I don’t entertain unproven or imaginary claims along religious lines, especially from those who embrace the faith/belief paradox that seems to encourage irrational conclusions. I will continue to point out the errors in such viewpoints.

If that bothers you, then perhaps you need to rethink your position.

Matt Pidlysny on January 21, 2009, 3:21 PM

Your perception of reality isn't normal, and seems self-serving at best

Seems to be. I will tell you that this is simply a difference of self speaking here, that irrationality should not be entertained. But you fail to realize, again, that it’s your own experiences that leads you to not understanding anything I say with irrationality.

I will say it how it is, because I have thought about it (Apparently MUCH more than you) and come to logical conclusions. You want rationality, look up somebody else. It is unfortunate that I don’t seem to find the time to explain myself rationally, and I express apologies for it. But once again, we fall back on this:

DO IT YOURSELF. IT WORKS. IT’S 1000000000x MORE MEANINGFUL TO DO IT YOURSELF. FUCK.

So yeah, I get angry. Right now I’m in a bit of a mood so I apologize for my blunt nature of doing things. Rationality is one step away and you walked in the other direction. On PURPOSE for fuck’s sake!

Get over religion man. Chistianity’s days are done and gone, get with the times. Here that time is, pissing in your face, and the longer you don’t realize it’s me and not your girlfriend the more fun I feel I’ve personally been gifted to have.

By the way, just something I wanted to point out. If you take one mans opinion for your own (Talking about rationalizing things here) you take one scope of a huge argument. I could rationalize my “Channelings” from before PERFECTLY well before I began to understand them, and now the rationalization changes accordingly. My point is, don’t limit yourself to one statement because BLAM-O! Next minute, it’s gone.

Musycks on January 21, 2009, 3:45 PM

pokoj… you’re right m’lad. I should not have said ‘no god appeared…. etc’.. I should have said the statistical probability that some god ever appeared to man as an event is so small as to be useless in any calculation and for all intents and practicalities it should therefore attract the factor of zero. ;)
hope that’s better.

Res… calm down. get some help.

Matt Pidlysny on January 21, 2009, 4:01 PM

Res... calm down. get some help.

I was taking you seriously, Musycks. But if you defame my character again, you can personally guarantee yourself that I will do the same. I know YOU have thought in your brain you’re not using.

Giesela Dohrmann on January 21, 2009, 9:41 PM

Res & Musycks is it not time to stop that bicking, or is there still more of that to come?


The possibility that there could be a god and we might as well believe, is rather bogus and absurd, I reckon.

This “urge” to believe in a god, does it not come from being concious of one’s own mortality and the terror of annihilation, which can get the better even of the most educated and intelligent human beings?

Or is it that man needs god to give his existence definition and meaning?

Religion it’s all wishfull think…..

Musycks on January 21, 2009, 10:20 PM

thanks for the attempt to umpire verisioph, but I’ll stack my history of posts up against Res anytime, for content and manners.

Matt Pidlysny on January 21, 2009, 11:08 PM

This "urge" to believe in a god, does it not come from being concious of one's own mortality and the terror of annihilation, which can get the better even of the most educated and intelligent human beings?

Yes. Several men came to my door and told me if I don’t believe in God, I would die. So I believed, and my life got better.

But it’s funny how that didn’t happen. Nor for many people. The reason people believe something that has been created (Religion) is to fill the void they cannot fill for themselves yet. Many people will tell you, in time, that they can fill the void, but you will remember (In time) that you contract yourself to a dead ideal. And I finally get that now.

thanks for the attempt to umpire verisioph, but I'll stack my history of posts up against Res anytime, for content and manners.

Seems like we have something in common. But at least I have content. I apologize right now for whatever “blasphemous” content I did write, but you have to understand that it IS a two way street. I understand your idealism, but you do not understand mine, no matter how much I try to get it across.

It falls back on not wanting to listen, musycks. You can’t avoid that.

sciencesaves on January 22, 2009, 10:23 AM

res, It’s not sensible to replace irrational religious belief with another equally ridiculous claim.

You recognize the fallacies of religion, but yet somehow can’t understand that it’s not any better to believe in other unproven concepts, or perception errors.

Musycks on January 22, 2009, 3:41 PM

Matt, I posted my thoughts on SS’s thread… please read.
we’ve all listened to you, the content is the problem… you think it’s meaningful obviously, but no-one else seems to be able to locate a scintilla of depth in your ramblings. Your aggressiveness is your problem, it don’t worry me… but I would venture it’s a symptom of your frustration of having the meaning of life sorted in your own head, but having most other people think you’re nuts.
Say hi to Dr Leary.

jayme fritz on January 22, 2009, 6:35 PM

Aside from the lack of evidence that God exist’s the reason I choose not to believe in god is simply because I dont feel I need God in my life and it doesnt help me live my life in any way. I was a very faithfull person at one time in my life but i turned away from the church and eventually god because it takes a certain amount of blind faith to say you believe in a divinity in general let alone claiming that only one way of believing in god is the “right” way. Not only that but i cherrish my life more then ever because i believe this may and probably is my only life to live so i want to make the most of it. This type of thinking has given clairity to my life and even though life may have been created completely by fluke therefor making it “meaningless” to some I think its a beautiful life and one that too full of things to enjoy and experience to throw away constantly worshipping a specific divinity. If God does exist i dont think he would want that for us either and hey if their is a God then i would assume god would also understand me enough to respect my choice as i harbor no hatred towards God or those who believe in a divinity.

Musycks on January 22, 2009, 9:17 PM

Hi eleet….. relax, there is no god, not in any variation. It is one of man’s lesser constructs… stick to the superior one’s literature, music,et al and embrace our capacity for empathy. When I lost god from my life, I lost nothing.

Welcome to the Big T rollercoaster.

pokój! on January 22, 2009, 10:38 PM

SS: I take no credit for that, and it seems to depend on what I’m addressing… :p
—————————-
Res:

“Get over religion man. Chistianity’s days are done and gone, get with the times.”

I wholeheartedly disagree… the number of truthseeking Christians, and those who are shrugging off the archaic traditions of the past, is on the rise. We are evolving spiritually as well. That is not to say that the fundies are completely dying off too… but all the gray areas in between are becoming more black and white. The fact that we still gather in praise/worship, and discuss scripture and modernity is not to say we are becoming more in tune with Jesus and our spiritual selves… it is still essential. However highly you regard you spiritual discernment, seeking growth and enlightenment solely on your own leaves far to much room open to be misguided. It is possible for the Holy Spirit and the unholy to exist within the same soul… that is the fundamental basis of the human struggle. And without the Holy Spirit as a guide, we would open ourselves up to all sorts of malignant spirits, and insanity in general. Just because it comes from a different level doesn’t mean it intends to bring you to the right place. You seem like the type that would believe in energy vampires… think along that lines, only with your soul. Be careful what you ‘channel’.

I’ve never been a strong supporter of organised religion, I haven’t ignored the evil it’s allowed into itself, and the harm it has done… but I’ve come to accept that you are much less likely to trip when you have friends to lean on and learn from.

Shalom
—————————————-
Mus: statistics and spirituality are not good bedfellows… and your claim in this matter is no better than mine, because science cannot prove or disprove the existence of G-d… but religion, I agree, is another story…

And G-d doesn’t ‘appear’… He embraces, and Loves…
——————-
verisoph:
(when I say your name in my head, it reminds me of a snuggles commercial, or puffs or something. Sorry :p)

“The possibility that there could be a god and we might as well believe, is rather bogus and absurd, I reckon.”

I agree. Take a solid stance. Sure everyone in the middle can say they are seeking, but if something is driving you to seek, then it shouldn’t take very long to come to terms with whether or not you believe it to be yourself, or G-d. It is useless, and even harmful, to go along with something you don’t wholeheartedly believe in.

This “urge” to believe in a god, does it not come from being concious of one’s own mortality and the terror of annihilation, which can get the better even of the most educated and intelligent human beings?“

In some cases, but it’s not an urge. You don’t have the ‘urge’ to not believe, right? You just don’t, plain and simple. I believe because I couldn’t deny G-d and more than I could deny that I have emotions, or that what I’m typing right now will be posted and read. I have no fear of death, but that is not because I believe it isn’t the end, but because it is inevitable.

”Or is it that man needs god to give his existence definition and meaning?“

Again, I’m sure this is true for many, if not a majority, of ‘believers’, but existence would have definition regardless of whether or not I believed in G-d. I don’t agree that the god concepts are something humanity needs to grow out of, I believe it is something we are growing in to. I don’t think the history of human belief in the immaterial would have been overwhelmed with god concepts if there was not some reason for it, because it wouldn’t make sense to pick just one creator for everything.

”Religion it’s all wishfull think….."

Honestly how shallow do you think believers are? If all we had to go on was thought, belief would have died out ages ago. Belief emanates from the heart and soul, and is independent of the brain.

Ripple on…

pokój! on January 22, 2009, 10:48 PM

eleet:

Nice to…kind of, in the digital sense… meet you…

"This type of thinking has given clairity to my life and even though life may have been created completely by fluke therefor making it “meaningless” to some I think its a beautiful life and one that too full of things to enjoy and experience to throw away constantly worshipping a specific divinity.“

I agree… beauty is apparent regardless of belief…

”If God does exist i dont think he would want that for us either"

I don’t feel that G-d wants mindless robots. We worship and praise not just because we are told that is what G-d wants us to do and that it ‘pleases’ ‘Him’, but because there is so much joy and contentment in it. I’m not talking worship in the archaic sense, say the Catholic church for example, I’m talking genuinely WANTING to. Like, not being able to contain yourself. Like when you see a beloved friend or Loved one after a long time, but in our case this friend and Loved one happens to be our G-d… :)

“…and hey if their is a God then i would assume god would also understand me enough to respect my choice as i harbor no hatred towards God or those who believe in a divinity.”

That is the purpose of free will… but if one believes in G-d, and doesn’t desire to reconnect with Him, as humans were made to, then there is a cost… its a fish out of water…

ripple on

Matt Pidlysny on January 22, 2009, 10:58 PM

You recognize the fallacies of religion, but yet somehow can't understand that it's not any better to believe in other unproven concepts, or perception errors.

I’ve said many a time I’m not religious anymore. It is not to say I don’t believe in God, but it is because of this article…

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126911.300-our-world-may-be-a-giant-hologram.html?full=true&print=true

…That I believe more than ever that humanity is going to find out that these are the waters from the Gnostic texts. If what the article says is true, there is no doubt in my mind at the moment. But we will see, as always.

However highly you regard you spiritual discernment, seeking growth and enlightenment solely on your own leaves far to much room open to be misguided.

Right here. I’ve said so many times that it was the best way to learn for me, so perhaps it is true in a subjective way I had to learn the hard way.

But why?

I was a very faithfull person at one time in my life but i turned away from the church and eventually god because it takes a certain amount of blind faith to say you believe in a divinity in general let alone claiming that only one way of believing in god is the "right" way.

I’ll point out that you are correct in observing this “Fallacy”, to use SS’s words here. How can there be only one if the same one created 6 children (Making 7) in another book? How is Odin and Thor relevant in Ragnarok? How do they all fit?

Find out, man. Don’t just give up because you realized it was a one sided story :P

pokój! on January 22, 2009, 11:10 PM

Res, how are Odin and Thor relevant at all? They are norse gods, not Christian…

pokój! on January 22, 2009, 11:19 PM

correction and addition on my 4th comment down addressed to resonator:

“The fact that we still gather in praise/worship, and discuss scripture and modernity is not to say we are becoming more in tune with Jesus and our spiritual selves… it is still essential.”

should be

The fact that we still gather in praise/worship, and discuss scripture and modernity doesn’t mean we are not evolving spiritually. Though we are becoming more in tune with Jesus and our spiritual selves it is still essential to have that interaction with others.

John 14:12 “I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.”

Matt Pidlysny on January 22, 2009, 11:33 PM

Res, how are Odin and Thor relevant at all?

Because they remind me of Sabaoth and Jesus.

interaction with others.

Interesting…That is all.

Giesela Dohrmann on January 23, 2009, 4:24 AM

There was a time when I envied people who could believe in a god(s)and I don’t think believers are shallow, Pokoj, not shallow…

Having had a non religious upbringing amongst christians, meant not being really part of a community. So I gave god a go, I tried my best to believe but to no avail, nothing happened, not even a tiny bit of religiousity came upon me.
This might sound a bit immature, even childish, – perhaps but it is fact.

I know, believers have a lot of advise and I have taken a few, but – still nothing.

That is not to say that I am missing meaning in me life, on the contrary.

Somehow god and all what is associated with him, is rather a bit “spooky”…

Lesson: Life without god and religion is fulfilling, meaningful and happy too.

Matt Pidlysny on January 23, 2009, 5:48 PM

Life without god and religion is fulfilling, meaningful and happy too.

Anyone who would say the opposite says a horrible thing. While I don’t deny I’ve said how much more worthwhile my way of thinking is, it’s because of who I am that I enjoy it. Ignorance is just as much bliss as wisdom, but the choice is for you. Obviously, if science says something that makes you happy in life, or if nature shows you a picture that fills that void in your heart, why deny it? What is WRONG with that? As much as I dislike calling people out (As I’ve done in the past out of anger) I must ask if it was a Christian who told you this. That can tell you alot.

Monotheism, in my opinion, is wrong purely because it is ignorance. To worship something other than yourself is ignorance because of what I could say I “know” about humanity. I will say this with honesty, that you are more powerful than any God, given the chance to be what you are made of. It is not measured in strength, but it is the metaphysical capabilities of Mankind that separate any God below the infinite light from a human.

They cannot escape what they are, and remember what I said when I mentioned that their nature is rooted in Jealousy. Even if they wanted to let us go, they could not. Jealousy overcomes. And that’s why the Antichrist will suffer when HE comes around and says what he will, because his effort for the change he wants will be ruined by this fact, but he cannot be stopped. He is a machine “built and assembled” for this mission.

The point is, don’t bind yourself (In your possibly not-too-distant) to a system that is fated to die inevitably. I don’t mean to call you Ignorant in any case, but perhaps “Meaningful negligence of currently theoretical fact” is a better term.

sciencesaves on January 24, 2009, 7:27 AM

Gillon, “One doesn’t have anything to lose by believing in god”

I disagree.

One loses respect from sensible folks, as one gives up logic, common-sense thinking, and perhaps behavior, in favor of fantasy.

One chose poorly…

pokój! on January 25, 2009, 12:04 AM

Belief emanates from the heart. If you can’t shut your mind up for long enough to listen to your heart, than there is no reason to think you will ever perceive G-d.

ss then I don’t need the respect of such ‘sensible’ folk.

One has much to lose from believing in G-d.
The loss of only taking responsibility into your self… You have to deal with, as ss said, people assuming you are clinging to an irrational belief for (insert the usual claims) (a crutch, or because it was how you were raised, or because you don’t like living in reality, etc…) You have to come to terms with your inability to communicate the joy you feel connecting to the divine, your reasons for believing because they are not rational in the scientific sense, but in the holistic sense, and being unable to describe the indescribable… its frustrating not being able to plug someone in to your Heart and just uploading the Love and sincerity and understanding… especially in mediums such as this… Oftentimes you have to strip away everything you have come to accept as reality and view your life through the lens of Love and open-mindedness in accepting that there is more to existence than meets the eye. And thats only the most basic…

Ignoring the heart IS blocking out some of the fundamental meanings of life… Sure, our perceived existence is beautiful even at face value… but there is so much more… Don’t just listen to the believers/religious. Listen to the artists, musicians, and poets. Listen to the earth itself. It’s groaning with the need to slap us on the face and say “there is more!” That is, until we alienate ourselves enough from nature that it wants nothing more than for us to leave it in peace.

The search for G-d’s understanding is only ‘spooky’ if you continue to personify G-d as the church has done for too long.

Yeah, I’ll shut up now…

Shalom

sciencesaves on January 25, 2009, 9:06 AM

Eloquent, pokoj!

Us pesky sensible folks understand, seek support from your peers, nothing wrong with that. The heart? Love is in the mind of the beholder, perceptions are unique and personal. I think abstract concepts of god seem to provide some strange sort-of closure to searching an unfathomably complex universe for solid answers.

Consciousness can be a real bitch sometimes!

Musycks on January 26, 2009, 10:40 PM

pokoj…. remove god from your phrases and it’d sound like me..
add god to my phrases and it’d sound like you?

I look at nature and see nature, you look at nature and see god. I look at the ‘heart’ of man and see the heart of man, you look there and see god.

ripple away.

pokój! on January 26, 2009, 11:46 PM

Funny how that happens…

And I’d say why remove G-d, and you’d say NGR…

Its still there though…

ripple in still waters