Big Think

Jeff Delano on September 29, 2008, 5:58 PM

For the record, at a slot machine in a casino if you get ‘777’ accross the board that is a ‘jackpot’.

Jeff Delano on September 29, 2008, 11:02 PM

Of course it would be naive to assume that, that’s why you have to do your work.

A collapse of the government brings in an opportunity for the people to govern themselves. History has always repeated itself, an empire collapses from greed, they either want too much territory, power or money, then a new group of individuals does the same thing and eventually collapses as well. In the meantime the separate empires/governments are killing each other.

The definition of insanity is: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, there will never be a one world government ruled by one faction with one capital city.

Humanity must stop this madness and break the cycle, the corrupt and self-serving politicians and bankers are losing their power, we must do something.

If we take back the power in the name of equality, not in greed, and hold those values and lessons that we have learned dearly, then the cycle will have been broken and corruption will never find it’s way back to the mainstream like it is today.

Bryan Cridlebaugh on September 30, 2008, 1:29 AM

I agree with Jeff. I think it’s time for the greedy to learn a new love. We can’t go on this way and expect anything close to peace.

HerbieP on September 30, 2008, 8:17 AM

As usual Mr Oakes is right. Any form of partial social collapse will merely mean greater hardship for the poor. The real sufferers from the sub-prime debacle are those people sold mortages they couldn’t afford and whose homes have been repossessed.

Any form of total collapse just means that the strongest bandits will be charge.

Prospertity, all be it grossly in favour of the better off, has lead to a better life for everyone. In general in a prosperous society there is room for human rights and welfare reform. These things are the first to disappear in times of crisis. People don’t sit around filled with the milk of human kindness when societies collapse, they kill and eat each other.

sciencesaves on September 30, 2008, 8:18 AM

I’m not sure if “symbology” is a word, perhaps you mean “symbolism”?

At any rate, the financial crisis here could escalate if folks start pulling their money out of accounts from fear of losing the ability to access those funds. How much faith in our broken government do we the people really have?

Nancy Pelosi and a lot of the left-leaning representatives killed the first draft by about 20 or so nay votes. I don’t want to see people suffer because they made unrealistic decisions regarding the amount of money they could borrow, and continue to pay back for their Mcmansions, or whatever else they feel they must have, but defaulting on loans from predatory lenders has really done a lot of damage here, and I’m not sure that these folks deserve to be rescued from the effects of their greed, same as the corporate entities that allowed it to happen. We have got to save the financial systems, but I don’t see why we all need to pay for the irresponsible borrowing of those who live with debt that they can barely afford to pay back. ARM’s should be outlawed, if that is even possible. We all need to live within our means, regardless of what we think we deserve, or are entitled to.

Americans materialism will be our downfall, I think.

dennis ilic on September 30, 2008, 8:56 AM

The very idea of taxpayers bailing out banks makes me sick.
How poorly do you have to run a business to be bailed out?

Deregulation with no accountability.
The fish stinks from the head… cut it off!

How much more damage will the American people allow their current administration to inflict before November?

Bryan Cridlebaugh on September 30, 2008, 12:13 PM

Will a social collapse be conducive to the moral re-education we propose? I think it could humble a lot of people that thought they would get away with this shit forever. As for the rest of us, we’ll take care of each other. I doubt there will be many cases of people starving, killing, and eating each other. What ever the case, the American gov is a fine example of a greed driven empire that could potentially self-destruct if they keep this up. I think.

Jeff Delano on September 30, 2008, 1:29 PM

I find it a little ironic that the posters who claim to be logical and realistic believe that humans killing humans is a natural thing and nothing should be done to stop it.

Once the politicians and bankers have lost all of their power, we the people who have been their ‘slaves’ must not treat them like they treated us. If that were to occur then we would be no different than them, the only difference this time is that we cannot allow new politicians, bankers, and titles with similar power to rise to power again.

Maybe I did mean symbolism, but I do believe symbology is a word and I used it in the right context for this idea. Wikipedia it ;)

HerbieP on September 30, 2008, 4:00 PM

Jeff there is a difference between having an informed view about how systems and people behave and thinking that it is a good thing. Your own understanding of systems is too influenced by wishful thinking.

sciencesaves on September 30, 2008, 7:39 PM

RO, Good points, and I agree that we as a nation should do what we can to keep our economy from collapsing. To do nothing would bring on misery for all of us here, not to mention the rest of the world, which is affected by what happens in the US.

I have a question for all of the regulars here to consider: Should the greed and self-centered actions of a few cause the rest of us who did no wrong to suffer and pay for it?

Jeff Delano on September 30, 2008, 9:48 PM

That’s a very good question SS, and ROakes and HerbieP, I respect your guys’ opinions. It’s more conservative and reminds me back when the world used to be a lot less hectic, it probably only seemed that way because everything was being covered up pretty good.

In the meantime, read this speech the President of Iran did at the UN http://www.un.org/ga/63/generaldebate/pdf/iran_en.pdf it’s some great stuff that he’s saying.

Musycks on September 30, 2008, 11:47 PM

the irony is deep that the most expensive single socialist act in history since Stalin is being championed by GW Bush.. but RO is right… nothing focusses the mind so much as the lack of an alternative. They need to salvage something from a corrupt system and then regulate to make sure it doesn’t happen that way again. If the disciplines of the US credit system had been sufficient, they wouldn’t be in this mess…. and dragging the world into the fiscal balck hole as well.. self regulation was a mirage, they can’t be trusted so regulate the buggers and get some sanity back into the system.

Jeff Delano on October 1, 2008, 12:19 PM

This is what “realistic and logical” people start doing when they want to talk about something that is right brain thinking, they want to apply what happens to one thing what happens to everything. Why would every day be symbolic? I would say only the day where they said Nay to the bailout bill and immediately afterwards a drop of 777 would be more symbolic.

Let’s see what happens today, I just think today if the senate says nay to the bill the market is just going to drop A LOT, no symbology – just a big red number with a red minus sign next to it.

HerbieP on October 1, 2008, 1:21 PM

Jeff you started drawing the symbolic comparisons, this is the kind of satire it makes you vulnerable to. The problem with symbolism is that you can find it anywhere and everywhere you want to and hence it is generally worthless outside of works of fiction.

However it is true that many people who work within the markets perform feats of statistical analysis that make predictions of market trends that are little better than most symbolic shamanistic activities.

HerbieP on October 1, 2008, 1:21 PM

I should have made clear that this is not directed at Mr Oakes – sorry.

dennis ilic on October 1, 2008, 7:34 PM

“the Dow rallying 485 points today”,
no bailout required.

“It is a 62% recovery which is close enough to a Fibonacci retracement (61%)”, let nature take it’s course.

If the taxpayer provides the bailout for the banks and lending businesses, who gets to keep the homes? Maybe if the banks etc. get a Moligan?, (is that the right term, golf term for do over), maybe the failed homeowners should too? I think that would be a fair.

Written language is symbol system which we still have to individually interpret. I was trained in university to find and interpret the symbolism within art. I do not make much of distinction between life and art. And I never found much of a distinction fiction and non fiction. Possibly pre matter and post matter respectively.

Jeff Delano on October 1, 2008, 10:30 PM

The media would love to have you speak for them roakes. The same media that was saying 6 months ago that we weren’t in a recession at all.

Jeff Delano on October 1, 2008, 10:31 PM

The hypocrasy/irony is too much, I have to ask this question. You think that I’m the hopeful and wishful thinker?!

HerbieP on October 2, 2008, 4:58 AM

I don’t think that our fellow contributors quite understand how everyone’s well being is dependant upon economic stability. It is not only the mortgages of the less well off that we are talking about but their pension funds also.

As Mr Oakes says the ‘bail out’ will ulitmately profit the US government. Ireland has backed its banks and much UK money is moving there. The UK government has backed Northern Rock and deposits are moving there. Piece meal shoring up creates instability. A quick decisive move will benefit large net worth individuals but they are not the ones who will suffer most in economic instability. Unfortunately the long term interests of the poor and the rich are aligned – this is the premise of capitalism.

sciencesaves on October 2, 2008, 9:39 AM

This whole mess is based upon greed.

The government here allowed, and actually encouraged the subprime lending, so the institutions that provided money to people who, realistically, did not have the means to purchase a home passed the problem back to the government when faced with the prospect of declaring bankruptcy.
They knew that the government would have little choice but to throw billions into propping up major players in order to avoid economic catastrophy.

As usual, those at the bottom of the economic chain will pay for the greed of those who really don’t care much about the reality that those who live on a limited income are faced with.

Capitalism must be regulated to some extent. The mulligan will be allowed because the alternative is unthinkable.

Once again, the power players have society in a checkmate. It’s a loaded game, and the rules only apply to those who cannot operate above the law. Morals be damned!

Bryan Cridlebaugh on October 2, 2008, 11:28 AM

So everyone sharing isn’t an option? :)

sciencesaves on October 2, 2008, 4:48 PM

Not enough love to go around, Clyde.

I’ve heard there are tent-cities springing up in the great northwest, that’s what usually precedes revolt by the masses. There’s a bunch of ‘em in Vegas, where our friend Luke lives.

Don’t think the democrats will do any better than the republicans have for those of us whose families have called this home for more than a couple of generations, I think we should create an ape-cult, then there’d be plenty O love!

Jeff Delano on October 2, 2008, 6:30 PM

Well if power corrupts and corruption is what’s destroying our world then why don’t we get rid of power? The way to get rid of power is to give everyone unlimited power.

You can buy your cocaine and snort it, but when you get all yacced up and you violate someone elses rights and free will the community will do whatever is in their measure to stop you in as peaceful a way as possible.

You can be a preacher at a Christian church but when someone says, “Wait, I don’t believe this, this sounds wrong to me.” you can’t tell the person they are stupid and they will burn in hell so they better start believing in it again.

You see, force has always been a very powerful influence throughout society. It helps gather the masses against the minority in a fearful, dark, and hateful way, therefore making the masses ‘right’. A little something called ethics is much more powerful than force though. With ethics you realize that everything is fine and dandy until it tries to violate your rights as a human and free will (choices).

Love is perhaps more powerful than ethics. With love you can grow your crops and eat the food that you need then unselfishly give the rest of your food away to the starving people. When an outside observor views something like that it makes them really think. Let’s say the farmer who lives next door, who hordes all of the food he grows and watches the poor people starve to death and uses his extra food to make a profit so he can buy a nice house. Is that nice house really worth several people starving to death? Maybe if he were to watch the loving farmer do his acts he would rethink what he does.

We all have the power to practice love and ethics. I think the world is prepared to make the transition from fear and hate to love and embracement. This is why I am not afraid of the economy collapsing, because it makes way for something great to happen.

So what if I’m not going to be on MTV Cribs showing off my 10 bedroom mansion, and my 6 cars. I find much more satisfaction that the people of the world aren’t killing each other anymore and no one is starving to death.

sciencesaves on October 3, 2008, 8:44 AM

Unlimited power? To do what, exactly?

Looks like the Raiders will get a new coach…hey, you can have Marvin Lewis, we don’t want him anymore!

HerbieP on October 3, 2008, 9:30 AM

To each according to his needs? Are Bryan and Jeff turning commie?

Bryan Cridlebaugh on October 4, 2008, 1:48 PM

I’m talking about people wanting to share, not people being forced to share. State of mind..

Jeff Delano on October 4, 2008, 6:26 PM

Bryan knows what’s up ;)

Besides, communism was only made to look bad by the western nations because it goes against the materialistic capitalism that drives the western nation’s economies. Learn to think for yourself and do what is right for yourself/everything.

sciencesaves on October 4, 2008, 9:20 PM

Communism doesn’t work because we are people, not robots.

HerbieP on October 5, 2008, 6:36 AM

No communism doesn’t work and capitalism does because people will always corrupt the concept of sharing whereas we can hold to the idea of competition and ‘greed is good’. True communism requires the best of people as Jeff and BC would wish. However we are not like that. We want things for ourselves which is why communism failed when set against capitalism.

All communist governments have been corrupted verions of Engels vision. Precisely because Engels was an idealist like Jeff and BC. It doesn’t work because we are ultimately selfish.

That said capitalism can’t last forever. The Soviet Union failed now it’s the US’s turn.

dennis ilic on October 5, 2008, 9:30 AM

Socialism works.

Jeff Delano on October 6, 2008, 4:01 PM

All of this old world thinking will not help humanity. If you are really implying that if the entire world turns communist then we would be better then that would be wrong. Communism is still based on money.

That Zeitgeist movie I posted helped me better articulate my thoughts on this manner, Old World Thinking is based on money. Once we are able to think outside of the box and not have a need for money, which promotes competition, selfishness, and greed we can create a new system of how our world can be ran which can promote the opposites of competition, selfishness, and greed which are cooperation, selflessness, and sharing.

It seems that the older generation is scared of change, at least the older generation in 1st world nations. The older generations in 1st world nations have lived through wars, crime, and all the bad stuff that their nation supports. As long as they have their money and are living comfortably and the only thought they have of crime scenes and war-zones they see are on their 56" HDTV then they don’t want anything to change because everything is just great for them. I’m sure every generation in a 3rd world nation would love to have change because they have absolutely none of the luxuries that we take for granted and have to live through horrific situations, by our standards, every day.

That’s why I am enjoying this economic collapse of 1st world nations, from there the money based system we have relied on will have failed and will make way for something better to rise to power.

HerbieP, your mind is like a parachute, it only works if it’s open ;) Maybe you should listen to the younger generations more often, just because we aren’t ‘experienced’ in life like you are doesn’t mean we are stupid. Besides, your ‘experience’ is only with a system based on money, which by our standards is one of the most corrupt systems of all time due to it’s being the most complex. At least slaves in Ancient Rome knew they were slaves due to there being slave masters with whips in hand.

Of course someone with your ‘experience’ will say “It doesn’t work because we are ultimately selfish.”.

Jeff Delano on October 6, 2008, 10:31 PM

Did you notice the DOW dropping number today? 369.88

Musycks on October 7, 2008, 9:35 PM

JD… my daughters favourite film when she was 5 was Pollyanna… I recommend it to you.

Jeff Delano on October 8, 2008, 1:22 AM

Your attitude is the only thing in this world that you can absolutely control, why wouldn’t you want to be optimistic all the time?

How about we watch the movie together musycks? Perhaps you can learn a thing or two ;)