Question: How do you deal with your success?
Rick Warren: When “The Purpose Driven Life” became the bestselling book in history in America, and the bestselling book in the world for three years, it brought in tens of millions of dollars, and it also brought in a lot of fame. And I had to ask myself, “What am I going to do with all this money? And what am I going to do with all this attention?”
It actually frankly scared me because; I started Saddleback Church in 1980, and I made the decision never to put the weekly services on television because I didn’t want to be a televangelist. I don’t like those guys. It’s not my style, and I didn’t want to be a celebrity. And so we, as much as we could, stayed out of the limelight. And we very happily for 25 years were not known except by maybe other pastors.
But then the success of the book “Purpose Driven Life” brought in enormous amounts of money, enormous amounts of attention. I think it was number one on New York Times for almost two years. And I began to pray about what I call the “stewardship of affluence” and the “stewardship of influence”.
What am I supposed to do with all this money, and what am I supposed to do with all this fame? Because I don’t think God gives you money or fame for your own ego – to just be a fat cat. There’s got to be a reason for it. And when you write a book and the first sentence of the book is, “It’s not about you” – that’s the first sentence of “Purpose Driven Life” – then when all this money and fame come in, you got to figure, “It’s not for you.” It’s kind of . . . Well yeah. And so I said, “God, what do you want me to do with this money? And what do you want to do with this fame?” And in that time period I began to read through the Bible – the Torah, the Old Testament and the New Testament. And I found one verse in the Old Testament that wasn’t in the Torah. It was actually in Psalms. And one verse in the New Testament, what to do with the money and what to do with the fame.
In the book of Corinthians in the New Testament, the Apostle Paul is writing to pastors, and he says, “Those who teach the Good News should make a living by the Good News.” In other words, it’s okay to pay your priest, your rabbi, your minister, your imam. It’s okay to make a fulltime living at ministry helping people. But Paul says I will not accept that right, because I want the freedom and the privilege of serving God for free so nobody can accuse me of doing it for money. And so Kay and I said, “That’s what we want to do.” And so after the book became such a big success, we did two things. Actually five major decisions.
First we said, “We’re not going to change our lifestyle one bit.” I still live in the same house I’ve lived in for 14 years. I drive an eight year old Ford. I don’t own a Rolex. I don’t own a guesthouse. I don’t own a boat. I don’t own a, you know, a jet. When “Purpose Driven Life” came out, I could have gone out and bought an island and retired and had people serve me little drinks with umbrellas the rest of my life. But that’s not really the purpose of life. It’s not why we’re here. And so we said we’re just not going to spend the money on ourselves.
Second thing is I stopped taking a salary from Saddleback Church. This was about five years ago.
Third thing is I added up all that the church had paid me over 25 years and I gave it all back. And I did that because I knew I was being put under the spotlight as a global or national leader, and people would be questioning my motives. And I didn’t want anybody to think I do what I do for money. In fact right after we made that decision to give all of my salary – 25 years of salary – back, the next week I was interviewed by a reporter from either Time or Newsweek, and her first question was, “What’s your salary?” And I thought, “Okay this is going to be good,” because she thinks here’s some fat cat, mega church pastor; you know ripping off the flock; you know getting rich off the donations of other people. And I looked at her and I said, “Look. Frankly I’ve served my church free for 25 years.” And it was like popping a balloon. She was an African-American. She went white. It was like, “Yes.” I mean it felt so good. I later had to repent of my pride, but it felt really good for about two minutes when I go, “Yeah, I did that.”
The fourth thing we did is we set up three charities. One is called Acts of Mercy that my wife runs which helps people infected with HIV and AIDS around the world. And we’ve been able to give a lot of money to that over the years to help people. And we have another foundation called Equipping Leaders that I lead. This last year I did a 46,000 mile tour around the world in 45 days. And everywhere we went training leaders, I would meet with the government leaders – usually the president of each country, the top business leaders and the top religious leaders. And that entire trip I paid for. We never charged anybody. We don’t take any honorariums or anything like that.
Recorded on: December 11, 2007
Discuss
Kieron Quinn on February 7, 2008, 5:27 PM
Warren sure runs counter to stereotype. I am very impressed.
Kieron Quinn on February 7, 2008, 10:27 PM
Warren sure runs counter to stereotype. I am very impressed.
Graham Orr on March 16, 2008, 2:44 AM
Rick Warren,
I've lived by your church for the last 19 years. All I have to say is that the rhetoric that is used makes Saddleback more of a cult than anything else. I actually have friends who used to be devout Christians (from your church) that have realized that they were trapped by the dogmatic ways of your teachings. They are terribly upset that no one told them that they were ridiculous.
Your impact on the world transcends money. "I'm such a good guy. I gave all my money away". Yeah, and in doing so you've made sheep of the peoples of Mission Viejo/RSM.
I've had numerous close friends that were members of your church. One hanged himself and at his funeral (at Saddleback) one of your ministers said that the only thing that mattered in his life is that he believed in Jesus. Thanks for discounting the fact that my friend was a wonderful person and you reduced his essence to your dogmatic ways.
Good job.
Graham Orr on March 16, 2008, 6:44 AM
Rick Warren,
I’ve lived by your church for the last 19 years. All I have to say is that the rhetoric that is used makes Saddleback more of a cult than anything else. I actually have friends who used to be devout Christians (from your church) that have realized that they were trapped by the dogmatic ways of your teachings. They are terribly upset that no one told them that they were ridiculous.
Your impact on the world transcends money. “I’m such a good guy. I gave all my money away”. Yeah, and in doing so you’ve made sheep of the peoples of Mission Viejo/RSM.
I’ve had numerous close friends that were members of your church. One hanged himself and at his funeral (at Saddleback) one of your ministers said that the only thing that mattered in his life is that he believed in Jesus. Thanks for discounting the fact that my friend was a wonderful person and you reduced his essence to your dogmatic ways.
Good job.
Luke Allen on May 6, 2008, 12:05 PM
To Graham Orr,
You, like most of your ilk, only send hatred on Pastor Warren with generalities. Whether or not his teachings are dogmatic are irrelevant when you don't specify which of his teachings you disagree with. The idea and only idea that you state is that the idea we are all sinners that love Christ; actually has roots in all religion and science. Meaning: what we don't know we study and learn through humility, even in science. When one already knows everything science itself ends. Discovery and lack of knowledge is the root to all knowledge of sins. Please understand the Christian community overwhelming Loves and supports both Pastor Warrens and yourself. I am not kind, however, to vague personal attacks that lack any real semblance of facts… if you didn't know: millions of people come and go through all churches, whatever they are, so personal expiriences of others are irrelevant to the truthful ideas expressed by Pastor Warrens.
Please show some semblance of a rational thinking human being before you simply admonish another's life work based on nothing more than life stories.
Good luck in learning that you are a simple minded individual that can only enhance your mind through the grace and glory of Jesus Christ in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
To Pastor Warrens,
Thank you sir, and God bless you. You send millions aid and relief regardless of their affiliations and if some just showed half your grace and kindness the world would be a far better place.
You are blessed by God for your wonderful ability to write beautiful books that literally help save millions of souls. DO NOT stop praying and learning as you are a man of tremendous strength and deserve the blessings of Christ.
I feel blessed to live in your era and will work as much as possible to help as many as possible as you have…
THANK YOU!!!!
Luke Allen on May 6, 2008, 4:05 PM
To Graham Orr,
You, like most of your ilk, only send hatred on Pastor Warren with generalities. Whether or not his teachings are dogmatic are irrelevant when you don’t specify which of his teachings you disagree with. The idea and only idea that you state is that the idea we are all sinners that love Christ; actually has roots in all religion and science. Meaning: what we don’t know we study and learn through humility, even in science. When one already knows everything science itself ends. Discovery and lack of knowledge is the root to all knowledge of sins. Please understand the Christian community overwhelming Loves and supports both Pastor Warrens and yourself. I am not kind, however, to vague personal attacks that lack any real semblance of facts… if you didn’t know: millions of people come and go through all churches, whatever they are, so personal expiriences of others are irrelevant to the truthful ideas expressed by Pastor Warrens.
Please show some semblance of a rational thinking human being before you simply admonish another’s life work based on nothing more than life stories.
Good luck in learning that you are a simple minded individual that can only enhance your mind through the grace and glory of Jesus Christ in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
To Pastor Warrens,
Thank you sir, and God bless you. You send millions aid and relief regardless of their affiliations and if some just showed half your grace and kindness the world would be a far better place.
You are blessed by God for your wonderful ability to write beautiful books that literally help save millions of souls. DO NOT stop praying and learning as you are a man of tremendous strength and deserve the blessings of Christ.
I feel blessed to live in your era and will work as much as possible to help as many as possible as you have…
THANK YOU!!!!
Graham Orr on May 20, 2008, 9:41 PM
To Luke####,
One day you'll learn this style of teaching is manipulation. Given your trajectory, however, this day will most likely be the day that you pass away and find that there is no more.
How appealing are the ideas of eternal life, a tangible creator, and unconditional love? Is it no coincidence that these ideas spread like a wildfire in 3rd world and uneducated populations?
How long have you searched for the kernel of the COSMOS without intervention of outside ideas? Did you arrive at the "Universal Truth" realized as the Bible without being exposed to the Bible? Because if the Bible were the Universal Truth then all independent and non-influenced quests of truth would lead to the kernel of the Bible. However, they do not.
Luke Allen on May 20, 2008, 11:01 PM
To Graham Orr,
Have you ever heard of a topical debate? You don't ever deal with points made, you just make general negative points that aren't included in the original's speaker or writer's arguments.
Every question you asked I will answer but I hope you will respond in kind by being as topical and addressing the points I made in my first statement: I will even simplify them for you by putting them in order 1-4 at the end of this response, to see if it is possible for your mind to respond.
To pass away and find there is no more is indicative of having awareness beyond death. Neat little trick on my part to prove your own words have some semblance of knowledge of awareness after death. Also, the idea that you are exhibiting energy now reading this, as I am writing it, and it is a fact that energy can NEVER be exactly recreated or ever destroyed (Thermodynamics) is further proof.
Now as far as manipulation goes, I doubt my readings of the gospels are anymore manipulative than those atheist that claim a belief in God is a primitive ignorance of our species. I mean after all, if they are true; who wouldn't want to be beyond that. Simply stating: manipulation occurs on both sides of the God coin, my friend, and I, as an individual, have not succumbed to this form of learning. You may want to check your premises to see if you have.
The appealing nature of a subject can never be a cause to reject it. Those that are poor in 3rd world nations also share another charectaristic: proximity to death. This is the same in the most developed nations, as any hospice will tell you, most folks get seriously spiritual approaching their end. Whereas, you may claim this is because of fear: I claim this is because of knowledge of eternal life, due to the fact of one's energy of which can never be destroyed.
The final paragraph you wrote please re-read so that you can see how convulated and non-sensical it is. "Did you arrive at the "Universal Truth" realized as the Bible without being exposed to the Bible" How could one respond to this when: no one not exposed could lead to something not known. Could you know how to type english if not exposed to the alphabet? Yes it was a book held in high regard but so was Gabriel Marquez's One Hundred Years of Solitude and I still read that and thought it was crap, lol. What I am trying to re-inforce here, Graham, is that one other's opinion has not and will not affect my thinking without my contemplating whether or not I want it to.
Now Graham the final point you attempt to make is that the Bible would be the root to all truth and you make the assertion that since it isn't then its wrong. By what authority? Who claims truth isn't there? Now please don't think I don't know there isn't a lot of Christian arguments that are WRONG! I particularly hate when Christians make "God of Gaps" arguments to defend their faith and I don't believe any Christian, myself included, has a full understanding of the texts… therefore, for me, the text isn't wrong we could be making wrong interpretations. And unless you know something that has "all" universal truths; The Holy Bible which might can't be abdicated just because we can't find all the answers in it.
So to summarize:
1. Pastor Warren does alot of AMAZING things in the world and if one of the member's of his church (which has millions) chooses to hang himself than you can't conclude it is only his dogmatic teachings that lead to this. In fact, law-of-large numbers and statistics will show that suicide is possible in any sub-group. The act of suicide can not be connected to anyone except the individual who committed suicide. Please don't use this fallacy of a personal story argument to discourage someone from ideas (Christianity) that you clearly don't understand.
2. The bile you sent in your first message was responded to by me with questions of your reasoning and logic. I still want to know those. You claim Christians are sheep; maybe some are, but your acting like a sheep of the atheist side by not attempting to assert why or how you can make these claims. Because one is, doesn't mean all in the group are my friend. I can assure you I am no sheep.
3. What teaching isn't slightly manipulative? And if you can concur that there is some manipulation to all teachings than why cant you concede that manipulation alone isn't cause for rejection? What would make you reject ANYTHING Pastor Warren's said on this message? Specifics please, no more "elephant hurling" (please google the term if you've never heard the term).
4. Finally, please check out www.answersingenesis.com and tell me which one of the doctoral speakers you disagree with most and what points particularly you find lacking in the scientific method?
I am hopeful for the continuation of our debate.
Graham Orr on May 21, 2008, 1:41 AM
To Luke####,
One day you’ll learn this style of teaching is manipulation. Given your trajectory, however, this day will most likely be the day that you pass away and find that there is no more.
How appealing are the ideas of eternal life, a tangible creator, and unconditional love? Is it no coincidence that these ideas spread like a wildfire in 3rd world and uneducated populations?
How long have you searched for the kernel of the COSMOS without intervention of outside ideas? Did you arrive at the “Universal Truth” realized as the Bible without being exposed to the Bible? Because if the Bible were the Universal Truth then all independent and non-influenced quests of truth would lead to the kernel of the Bible. However, they do not.
Luke Allen on May 21, 2008, 3:01 AM
To Graham Orr,
Have you ever heard of a topical debate? You don’t ever deal with points made, you just make general negative points that aren’t included in the original’s speaker or writer’s arguments.
Every question you asked I will answer but I hope you will respond in kind by being as topical and addressing the points I made in my first statement: I will even simplify them for you by putting them in order 1-4 at the end of this response, to see if it is possible for your mind to respond.
To pass away and find there is no more is indicative of having awareness beyond death. Neat little trick on my part to prove your own words have some semblance of knowledge of awareness after death. Also, the idea that you are exhibiting energy now reading this, as I am writing it, and it is a fact that energy can NEVER be exactly recreated or ever destroyed (Thermodynamics) is further proof.
Now as far as manipulation goes, I doubt my readings of the gospels are anymore manipulative than those atheist that claim a belief in God is a primitive ignorance of our species. I mean after all, if they are true; who wouldn’t want to be beyond that. Simply stating: manipulation occurs on both sides of the God coin, my friend, and I, as an individual, have not succumbed to this form of learning. You may want to check your premises to see if you have.
The appealing nature of a subject can never be a cause to reject it. Those that are poor in 3rd world nations also share another charectaristic: proximity to death. This is the same in the most developed nations, as any hospice will tell you, most folks get seriously spiritual approaching their end. Whereas, you may claim this is because of fear: I claim this is because of knowledge of eternal life, due to the fact of one’s energy of which can never be destroyed.
The final paragraph you wrote please re-read so that you can see how convulated and non-sensical it is. "Did you arrive at the “Universal Truth” realized as the Bible without being exposed to the Bible" How could one respond to this when: no one not exposed could lead to something not known. Could you know how to type english if not exposed to the alphabet? Yes it was a book held in high regard but so was Gabriel Marquez’s One Hundred Years of Solitude and I still read that and thought it was crap, lol. What I am trying to re-inforce here, Graham, is that one other’s opinion has not and will not affect my thinking without my contemplating whether or not I want it to.
Now Graham the final point you attempt to make is that the Bible would be the root to all truth and you make the assertion that since it isn’t then its wrong. By what authority? Who claims truth isn’t there? Now please don’t think I don’t know there isn’t a lot of Christian arguments that are WRONG! I particularly hate when Christians make “God of Gaps” arguments to defend their faith and I don’t believe any Christian, myself included, has a full understanding of the texts… therefore, for me, the text isn’t wrong we could be making wrong interpretations. And unless you know something that has “all” universal truths; The Holy Bible which might can’t be abdicated just because we can’t find all the answers in it.
So to summarize:
1. Pastor Warren does alot of AMAZING things in the world and if one of the member’s of his church (which has millions) chooses to hang himself than you can’t conclude it is only his dogmatic teachings that lead to this. In fact, law-of-large numbers and statistics will show that suicide is possible in any sub-group. The act of suicide can not be connected to anyone except the individual who committed suicide. Please don’t use this fallacy of a personal story argument to discourage someone from ideas (Christianity) that you clearly don’t understand.
2. The bile you sent in your first message was responded to by me with questions of your reasoning and logic. I still want to know those. You claim Christians are sheep; maybe some are, but your acting like a sheep of the atheist side by not attempting to assert why or how you can make these claims. Because one is, doesn’t mean all in the group are my friend. I can assure you I am no sheep.
3. What teaching isn’t slightly manipulative? And if you can concur that there is some manipulation to all teachings than why cant you concede that manipulation alone isn’t cause for rejection? What would make you reject ANYTHING Pastor Warren’s said on this message? Specifics please, no more “elephant hurling” (please google the term if you’ve never heard the term).
4. Finally, please check out www.answersingenesis.com and tell me which one of the doctoral speakers you disagree with most and what points particularly you find lacking in the scientific method?
I am hopeful for the continuation of our debate.
Luke Allen on May 21, 2008, 10:04 AM
sorry the website is www. answersingenesis.org (in regards to point 4)
Luke Allen on May 21, 2008, 2:04 PM
sorry the website is www. answersingenesis.org (in regards to point 4)
Graham Orr on May 23, 2008, 12:13 AM
Luke#####,
I looked at the website you linked to and read your recent responses. This nonsense is not worth my time. I have real science/engineering to do… I'd be more than happy to take on AiG PhDs (who appear to often talk on subjects they are not educated in) though debate here regarding particulars isn't worth the effort.
In regard to my disapproval of Saddleback Church, measure of something often times is the compilation of anecdotal observations…and although my observations are anecdotal, they are worth consideration especially since I am not the only one who believes such things.
Regards,
Graham
Graham Orr on May 23, 2008, 4:13 AM
Luke#####,
I looked at the website you linked to and read your recent responses. This nonsense is not worth my time. I have real science/engineering to do… I’d be more than happy to take on AiG PhDs (who appear to often talk on subjects they are not educated in) though debate here regarding particulars isn’t worth the effort.
In regard to my disapproval of Saddleback Church, measure of something often times is the compilation of anecdotal observations…and although my observations are anecdotal, they are worth consideration especially since I am not the only one who believes such things.
Regards,
Graham
Luke Allen on May 29, 2008, 3:36 PM
Final note to Graham Orr,
Your negative antecdotal comments have been proven as baselsess and fruitless as they are and that was always my only objective.
Your claim, however, of not having enough time is false; it literally only takes me five minutes to respond to your idiotic comments. The time it takes you is proof of your lack of knowledge on the topic.
Stick to whatever it is you think you know and don't make comments or judgements on Christian's, who spend their life's making this world better; while you just whine and do nothing.
Luke Allen on May 29, 2008, 7:36 PM
Final note to Graham Orr,
Your negative antecdotal comments have been proven as baselsess and fruitless as they are and that was always my only objective.
Your claim, however, of not having enough time is false; it literally only takes me five minutes to respond to your idiotic comments. The time it takes you is proof of your lack of knowledge on the topic.
Stick to whatever it is you think you know and don’t make comments or judgements on Christian’s, who spend their life’s making this world better; while you just whine and do nothing.
Rachele Antenucci on December 14, 2008, 11:36 AM
What is success? I watched a friend become a famous singer who is afraid of all friendships because she thinks “someone is going to ask her for money.” I watched her let her mother run her life, as a stage manager would to scare off people that truly loved and cared about her. I listened to her mother tell me, “She now has to associate with other successful people such as royalty, politicians, film stars and movie stars and that sometimes in life the little people are used as stepping stones to get to the top.” I watched my friend crumble psychologically, no thanks to the press as she had two failed marriages and other scandals in her life. She has “financial mobility” but lives in a fear based bubble. Really…what is success?
Graham Orr on January 4, 2009, 4:45 AM
“Stick to whatever it is you think you know and don’t make comments or judgements on Christian’s, who spend their life’s making this world better; while you just whine and do nothing.”
Now this is a hilarious comment. Me do nothing?! Ha! I’m actively investing my life into the study of the long-term survival of the species with particular advancements in space propulsion and power systems… not to mention adaptive “smart structures” more energy efficient electric motors and new numerical algorithms for heterogeneous reaction regressions. What are you doing with your life?
George Epstein on January 13, 2009, 9:45 PM
Brag. Duh.
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