Big Think

Luke Allen on August 28, 2009, 12:48 AM

Ouch. Haha well at least you admit he existed. So just wondering how did Jesus “effectively commit suicide?” And do you think that James (Jesus brother from John and Mary) Would’ve been a follower of Christ if he believed is brother was illegitimate? 

Richard Oakes on August 28, 2009, 4:44 PM

Hi there Luke,

I don’t know whether Jesus existed or not. There is no evidence outside the Bible that proves that he did.

However, for the purpose of my rather naughty post, I accepted facts from the Biblical account at face value, and have tried to come to terms with how people might have reacted in that situation. The whole situation seems bizarre to me, and the church has plainly struggle with the role of St. Joseph, the issue of whether the son of God could be conceived in sin, and the necessity of Jesus’s eventual sacrifice. The church’s reasoning around these issues is stretched to the point of torture.

This post was not intended to shake your faith. Only you can do that.

Take care.

RO

Afterthought: Illegitimacy has rarely stopped people following a charismatic leader in the past. William the Conqueror and Laurence of Arabia are the first two successful bastards who come to mind.

tim hall on August 28, 2009, 7:00 PM

Hey RO, I hope your having a great time. You should be rewarded after those last two years of work.

Hi Luke,

I think that folks get caught up in the excitement of discussing faith and beliefs and forget how history really was. I believe the family in question was a poor family. Folks do not fully grasp the picture of living in the 1st century. The poor people did not live by the same moral standards as the wealthy and there wasn’t a middle class. The poor hardly had much of a vocabulary. Marriage, illegitimacy and incest were not a great social issue for the poor.

I have learned that there are a handful of common types of believers in faith. The most prominent being from a tight knit family and the second most common having some sort of history of problems functioning in society, the third is drawn in through marriage. I think science could prove them dead wrong and it would never shake their faith. They feel completely comfortable with their life believing in the Bible, why would they want to change that, just to be correct? Faith is much more important to them. It is a big part of how they function every day.

I guess the big question is: How does one know if he is brainwashed, if he is brainwashed? It is kind of like “how do you know if your crazy, If your crazy.”

HerbieP on August 29, 2009, 4:00 AM

The Gospel stories of Jesus are in conflict in a number of places with history and contemporary Jewish culture. They are clearly constructs designed for a mixed first century audience that are combinations of stories based on some Jewish preacher and some myth and wishfulfilment. The son-of-God idea is common in religion and mythology.

I don’t understand why he needs to be the biological son of Mary and not also Joseph. Did God supply a ‘Y’ chromosome? His biological material can’t be a clone of Mary so presumably God supplied half the genetic material. Why was this necessary? Surely the ‘fully man’ biological bit is irrelevant to God. Would it matter if Joseph had been the biological father? Couldn’t God just have filled any physical vessel with the Holy Ghost? I’m not clear how Chrsitians concieve of this working. Are they saying that God did some genetic tinkering with one of Mary’s ova? I suspect that in the Christian mind there is something polluting about the sex act and Mary had to be a pure vessel for God to touch her. God doesn’t do sloppy seconds. Hard for him not to get grubby when messing about in our dirty material world.

sciencesaves on August 29, 2009, 7:46 AM

Good observations and reasonable conclusions, RO.

I have no problem believing that Jesus existed…but not in the capacity that the religious myths purport, and certainly not that he was anything more than a mortal man, if he did exist.

“God doesn’t do sloppy seconds” (lol) I would elaborate on that with the fact that god doesn’t exist at all, unless the human mind malfunctions.     

Bryan Cridlebaugh on August 30, 2009, 1:13 AM

“When Jesus asked the question “Father, why have you forsaken me?”, I wonder which father he was talking about?” 

I wonder why he had to ask.

Bryan Cridlebaugh on August 30, 2009, 1:56 AM

 I wonder why?  So the story goes…. he asked “Father, why have you forsaken me?”  I would think that he’d have to know a shit load or at least a fuck of a lot to walk on water, heal, “know” he’s the son of God, and so forth………….  “Forsaken!!” ???  I guess even the son of God didn’t even know what’s up?  Why would we be judged?  What a wild story it turned into.  Forgiveness is one of the better parts.  Love’s pretty good to.        

If Jesus was a real person that had a real affect, then I would guess that our understanding of him now is something like a not so good “based on a true story” movie. 

Bryan Cridlebaugh on August 30, 2009, 1:59 AM

at best.

Verisoph sapiens on August 30, 2009, 2:34 AM

Too true BC!

And that movie would by x-rated due to the sadistic violence in it. What did Freud say about this father and son relationship?

According to some ancient and not so ancient literature, renaissance art and Rudolf Steiner, there were 2 Jesus children, a year apart.

That might be all a bit far fetched, but hey, isn’t the whole story…?

tim hall on August 30, 2009, 10:47 PM

I believe that there was good reason for this Jewish sect to possess such wild stories.

Compared to other warior nations, the Romans were quite laxed on their conquered people. You were aloud to live as you wish as long as you weren’t interfearing with the Roman’s economics or commerce. It was kind of a false hope for the Jews. So they would split off into different sects to gain power and notoriety within themselves. The wilder claims or stories that they could get others to believe, the larger their sect could grow.

Jesus could have existed. Most likely a young man who worked in town and became victorious in teaching the ten commandments to a dozen or more people. The rest was most likely exagerated and made up in order to gain notoriety. As the stories expanded, Paul and his followers picked it up and ran with it. The reason why Christianity grew so well was because that part of the world was split up into many kingdoms ran by tyrants. The same thing is still going on with the people of Africa today. The Talban is another cult that seeks to gain power by offering poor ignorant people a form of cival life in trade for their crazy backward beliefs.