Big Think

shannon lee on January 17, 2008, 6:41 PM

As someone who’s become rather intimate with suicide, I’d have to label it as an act of cowardice.

I never once saw suicide as a form of bravery, even when I myself was suicidal.

The will and devotion to life is bravery. Giving up on that is pure cowardice. Now that I think about it, I’d dare say that the fear of death is only possible through some kind of love for life.

Z Zarcone on January 17, 2008, 7:14 PM

Brave? No, I don’t think suicide can ever be counted as brave, unless it’s used to protect another person, but that would be more accurately labeled as self-sacrifice.

Cowardly? No again. Suicide in my experience is never a result of ‘fear’ of life, but mainly anger at the life we’ve been given.
Much less likely, but still worth mentioning; sometimes we’ve seen so much suffering in the world, and we’ve become so jaded and tired of existence that it becomes a casual decision. ‘If I don’t enjoy life, what’s keeping me here? What reason do I have to stick around?’

You could say they should stay for their family and friends, but you wouldn’t be taking into account people that are labeled immoral and disgusting in this society of ours, specifically, in my mind, people of the LGBT community. A fair chunk of these folks are abandoned by friends and family if they come out in less accepting areas of society. But even assuming the person in question has friends and family close to them, the selfishness in suicide flows both ways, you could say the suicide victim is putting emotional stress on his/her family/friends, but by the same token, it’s also selfish to say they should take all the misery in life for YOU.

A Co on January 17, 2008, 8:19 PM

It matters the situation, as do all things. No act should be labeled brave or weak, because it will never always be.

Jason Mancer on January 17, 2008, 8:36 PM

well i disagree but you have a good point but i wouldnt say that the majority of people fear death cause i dont a look forward to it and i think its cowardly to kill yourself but the people who do it arnt cowards there just have a bad life and need support

and when i say i look forward to death i dont mean im sucidal im not but i do look forward to daeth cause i belive in heaven but suicid will send me to hell so i wont do that

Jason Mancer on January 17, 2008, 8:40 PM

but on the other hand it can be considerd the gravest thing anyone could do takeing it into prespective

ecer hear the term suicide misson
some people can commite suicide for the greater good or for the benifite of others kind of like in almost half of all action movies the hero or heros friend dose some crazy move that gets him killed and saves his friend like in dawn of the dead when that dude in the bus id geting eatin by zommbies and he takes a gernade and blows them all up and like in the ending of i am legend when will smith takes the gernade and runs at the mutents so the people with the cure can get away and in 300 when they stay and fight to the death instead of runiong away when they had the chance so yes sucide in the right intention can be very brave

Jason Mancer on January 17, 2008, 8:41 PM

bravest not gravest sorry****

shannon lee on January 17, 2008, 9:10 PM

(cute band, btw)
:)

Nathan Laswell on January 17, 2008, 9:22 PM

I’d have to say you didn’t give enough answers to the question.

I’d go with selfishness, and underestimation.

People don’t typically think what effect they’ll have on others (family, friends, community) when they commit suicide. Suicide has such a bigger effect on others than suicide suspects think.

Suicide victim is a logically incorrect
term….

Some might fell they can’t deal with the difficulties in their life. They don’t apply themselves enough or even try to cope with those situations for that matter.

Bruce Allen on January 17, 2008, 11:18 PM

I don’t fear death as such, but I sure as hell worry about leaving a mess behind.

The decision to suicide is taken in light of circumstances from an almost endless selection. Perhaps we should not be too hasty to pass judgment before we know the particular circumstances in a particular case.

Derek Pritchard on January 18, 2008, 3:03 PM

To commit suicide is proof to the individuals understanding of its own minute chances on creation upon many other things. The animals con to a “conscience,” for one thing. We are the only animals intelligent enough to know ending our lives in face of specific danger or impending irriversable doom will cease. Which leads me to believe its possible for suicide to be justified as well. But on a common note committing suicide is a mental illness with the lack of ability to cope with the reality imposed upon them. Or maybe even imposed upon themselves. To say “bravery” a term other than “suicide” in a positive manner is more than probably mal analyzed, therefore “cowardice” is a more dependable term on this scenario of understanding. Keep up the good ideas randall!

Randall Menser on January 18, 2008, 3:06 PM

Paul Simpson on January 18, 2008, 5:13 PM

I imagine that the decision to end one’s life, for most, does take a lot of courage. Given that we have an innate mannerism that is bent toward self preservation and survival.

I think brave and cowardice are both incorrect labels, but to call suicide courageous may in fact encourage some people to make good their notion.

Destructive is a better label.

Brittany D on January 18, 2008, 8:18 PM

suicide is usually a mental disorder.
half the time it is because the person suffers from depression.
it is not brave. it is not cowardness and i’ve never heard anyone say it was cowardness before.

Randall Menser on January 18, 2008, 9:02 PM

I suggest you keep your ear to the ground a bit more then. Obviously there are other motivations for going through with suicide. I%u2019m not interested in the various complexities in this dialogue. Considering the fact that taking your own life is quite serious, there has to be a fear and innate self-preservation within us all that must be overcome. My question is it courageous to actually go through with it , or cowardice for doing it as an escape from life problems.

Matt Hanley on January 18, 2008, 11:31 PM

I think whether suicide is a final act of bravery or cowardice is relative to one’s cultural and personal context. In many ancient cultures (Rome, Japan, etc.) there were times when honor demanded suicide. I wouldn’t consider it cowardice, but I also wouldn’t consider it bravery. Honorable is probably best.

If you were referring to suicide in the U.S., we don’t really have codes of honor or anything like that, so I doubt most U.S. suicides would be “honorable”—maybe in modern day Japan.

Tina Pajaro on January 19, 2008, 12:28 AM

Do you think it is the fear of hell or the unknown that makes death so scary to most people? If people were certain that after suicide/death their awareness would just stop it would be a different question. If someone kills themself in HOPE that there is no hell but without being certain then there would be a lot of fear about hell and they might have to ignore to do it or convince themselves they KNOW there is no afterlife.

Brittany D on January 19, 2008, 9:04 PM

randall menser you annoy the hell outta me. get a life. please.

Kris Kimmel on January 19, 2008, 9:22 PM

I suppose whether or not its a brave thing to do depends on your idea of whats waiting for you after you die. If your Christian, then I would have to assume its more stupid then brave or cowardly. Its a sin right? doesn’t that mean you go to hell? and If your Atheist, it would mean you wasted your one and only chance at life. If you believe you will be reincarnated, then I guess it just means you want a do over… I don’t really think it has anything to do with Bravery or Cowardice, but how your feeling about life at the time. people who commit suicide are those who have hit rock bottom and then dug down a little deeper. Maybe it is cowardice to not even wanna try to pick yourself up, to ‘cut your losses’ so to speak, but I don’t think its something anyone can imagine until we are at that point.

jessica baker on January 20, 2008, 2:24 AM

i think it is a mental disorder, posibly from confusion. Depending on the different person and why.
Moat of the time the people are suffering from depression.
This is a mental state.

jessica baker on January 20, 2008, 2:24 AM

i think it is a mental disorder, posibly from confusion. Depending on the different person and why.
Most of the time the people are suffering from depression.
This is a mental state.

stephanie ranny on January 20, 2008, 3:00 AM

i think that suicide is a cowardice selfish thing to do these people do not stop to think about what everyody else is going to feel after they do it
it is purely pathetic act in which a selfish person does because they do not have the mental and physical strength to make better of a bad situation

Derek Pritchard on January 20, 2008, 12:44 PM

“likethisxoxo” is probably taken offense to it because she probably has contemplated suicide.

Andy Miser on January 20, 2008, 2:07 PM

I think that a person who decides to kill themselves has probably reached a point where “getting away from” life as it is has become so important that the possible downside of death is not anymore relevant. The irony of suicide is that it helps you get away from what you don’t want, but is does not create what you want. So it is usually an act of desperation.

People who label suiciders as cowards are perhaps just trying to “be on top” by putting the suicider down. A statement like that reveals more about the ego of the person stating it than the suicider the statement is about.

Josie C on January 20, 2008, 4:15 PM

No one has the real answer to this question. I would say that until you have been in that situation, (and by that I obviously mean the attempt), you can never really know how YOU would act. I know some people would say, “but I would never…” well guess what? people who get placed (or place themselves) in the most extreme, dire, complex, alarming or stressful situations don’t necessarily act or react in the way or manner in which they thought they would. If you don’t believe me, well try and extreme situation and see what you are really made of. Of course I’m not advocating suicide attempts but what I am saying is test your strengths and your weaknesses and see what happens to you.

Issues of mental illness, loneliness, depression, misunderstanding, desperation… they are all most likely present in a suicide. I don’t believe that the person who makes an attempt to end their life is necessarily thinking of anything but their pain and suffering and therefore hard for them to think of what their family and friends will go through. I would imagine given that we are creatures who inherently fight for self preservation that CHOOSING to end your own life must take and extreme level of strength and therefore why some people equate it with bravery. But I wouldn’t necessarily label the act with that word. An act of desperation born of pain and suffering is the better explanation.

Bruce Allen on January 20, 2008, 6:04 PM

Folks who consider suicide to be cowardice, may be too young to have encountered the circumstances where it comes up for consideration. In some case, it can be triggered by total EXHAUSTION from the effort of staying alive.

Brittany D on January 20, 2008, 10:05 PM

ok. yaa its not usually a mental disorder and it is kind of an act of selfishness because you hurt a lot of the people around you.

doris trinh on January 20, 2008, 11:35 PM

I don’t think its possible for anyone to pass judgement on a person who has commited suicide when they have not been in there shoes or lived the life they have. I have had many friends who have been suicidal and at face value appear to be the most confident, exuberant people. They must have secretly been troubled without a method to deal with it.

Personally I think that for most of us the thought of committing suicide and ending our own lives would be the scariest thought ever. It takes some sort of courage to actually go through with it, not that I condone it.

Additionally I’m lead to think of all the creative and intellecutal geniuses who have commited suicide. Some of the most influential people Eg. Nick Drake, Ian Curtis, Hemingway, Tchaikovsky. I can’t associate the notion of cowardice with people such as these who had the courage in life to create such profound masterpieces in their respected fields.

There are people who do think suicide is a result of cowardice or lack of strength. However, tragedy is difficult to bounce back from. Repeated experiences of tragedy even harder. There are those who are succcessful and that may not be due to personal strength but more to environmental factors. There are people out there who have grown up in horrible situations, with no support network, lack of social abilities, lack of education, leading to various mental and physical conditions. In the end it comes down to a persons ability to cope and its our role to try to help them cope where possible as human beings.

Labeling people shouldn’t be the priority, the priority should be to prevent tragedies from reoccuring.

doris trinh on January 20, 2008, 11:35 PM

I don’t think its possible for anyone to pass judgement on a person who has commited suicide when they have not been in there shoes or lived the life they have. I have had many friends who have been suicidal and at face value appear to be the most confident, exuberant people. They must have secretly been troubled without a method to deal with it.

Personally I think that for most of us the thought of committing suicide and ending our own lives would be the scariest thought ever. It takes some sort of courage to actually go through with it, not that I condone it.

Additionally I’m lead to think of all the creative and intellecutal geniuses who have commited suicide. Some of the most influential people Eg. Nick Drake, Ian Curtis, Hemingway, Tchaikovsky. I can’t associate the notion of cowardice with people such as these who had the courage in life to create such profound masterpieces in their respected fields.

There are people who do think suicide is a result of cowardice or lack of strength. However, tragedy is difficult to bounce back from. Repeated experiences of tragedy even harder. There are those who are succcessful and that may not be due to personal strength but more to environmental factors. There are people out there who have grown up in horrible situations, with no support network, lack of social abilities, lack of education, leading to various mental and physical conditions. In the end it comes down to a persons ability to cope and its our role to try to help them cope where possible as human beings.

Labeling people shouldn’t be the priority, the priority should be to prevent tragedies from reoccuring.

Bruce Allen on January 21, 2008, 12:56 AM

It seems to me that the discussion here is focussed on suicide of the capable. Suicide for the elderly or non-capable is an issue of ‘quality-of-life’. This does sound like a good topic for another thread.

Chris Rieth on January 21, 2008, 6:30 AM

Suicide is silly. You aren’t supposed to kill yourself for no good reason. If you do then what you just did was show how unserious you were in life. It’s an act of courage to kill yourself for sure because it’s against all natural instincts but it’s dumb since you aren’t sure you are going to be any better off dead. If you really don’t fear death then whatever life throws at you you can always say that death will balance it all out in the end. The only other factor is the pain of living which sucks from time to time but you got to remember that the worst pain is self-imposed.

This is coming from someone who’s contemplated suicide on many occasions.

Bruce Allen on January 21, 2008, 6:52 AM

Reithc — For a 23 year-old, suicide should be the farthest thing from your mind. If you are lucky enough to be alive in 50 years time, you might find that you consider the option a little differently, especially if your quality-of-life is less than you can cope with.

pokój! on January 22, 2008, 1:15 AM

Cowardice could be considered a part of it, but also the loss of desire to live and the rage of continuing to live when you can’t deal with current circumstances can overpower strength and bravery. It is a loss of the natural impulse to go on living by any means possible. And occasionally it pops up when someone else’s life is at stake along with your own, e.g. those rare stories you hear of someone allowing themselves to die to save someone else. That couldn’t be considered cowardice unless it was done to appear brave when one truly does it as an acceptable way to kill yourself.

Some may not consider it “lucky” to live long lives… that is the worst kind of cowardice… wanting to die, too afraid to kill yourself, and going on living hoping to die as soon as possible, even doing things such as smoking and drinking to speed up the process… i’ve been guilty of that trend of though on occasion… and i’m only 22.

What would you consider those who kill themselves with goals in the mind? Like Jonestown (even though some of that was involuntary) or the Heaven’s Gate deaths, or even individual circumstances. Mass hysteria? The definitive brainwashing?

Douglas Acker on February 10, 2008, 10:37 PM

Do we stop people from having unprotected sex? Do we stop people from using drugs? Do we stop people from becoming fundamentalists? Why should we stop people from committing suicide? It’s just another self destructive behavior – I say behaviour because most attempts are unsuccessful.

Susan Shipp on February 11, 2008, 12:25 PM

Albert Camus famously posited, " The only true philosophical question is whether life is worth living." It’s rather judgemental of those left behind to call it cowardice, just because the act hurts them. On the other hand, we have an obligation once we’ve landed on this planet to try to live out this life as best we can. Let’s face it, it’s a pretty remarkable opportunity—to have conciousness and a body. Once we’re dead, we’re dead. Bye-bye blue skies, chocolate cake, sex, and bye-bye mortal coil.

lucy rice on February 23, 2008, 12:18 AM

It depends which way you look at it, as in all situations, suicide can go either way. If someone takes the “emo” view on their situation and decide that they have nothing else to live for in this world, then that would be cowardice. But if you look at certain heroic situations such as the soldier who a year or two ago took off his own helmet and sacrificed his life to cover a live grenade, that would be considered bravery. Then again, it is pretty brave, even if this sounds a little strange,to decide that you are going to take your own life and then follow through on that decision. Of course, suicide, brave or nor, is a terrible thing to do so we honestly shouldn’t be questioning the characteristics of the situation but we should be trying to avert the circumstance.

Duane petersen on February 25, 2008, 1:57 PM

Life should be fully utilized when functional and optimally for society, short when not.
People not functional and lacking medical care for functionality sometimes choose not to be burdensome. I respect one who demonstrated this. Life at all cost has a practical aspect, and for any who waved flags as we bombed Iraq/Afghanistan people may be sitting on a very thin fence.

Edward C on February 26, 2008, 8:21 PM

If you are an A$$hole I would say it’s bravery!

But if you’re one of the good ones – hang in there buddy, it aint that bad…

Suzan M on May 30, 2008, 7:48 PM

I would have to say that most suicides are an act of desperate depression … which is neither cowardly or brave but most often a result of a chemical imbalance which can be brought on by many things including both psychological as well as physical events. There are exceptions of course, but the premise that suicide is either brave or cowardly seems to miss the point entirely.

Sara Fields on June 8, 2008, 3:11 AM

My father killed himself when i was eight years old, he was not a coward. He was a man who suffered greatly all of his life, and he died when he could no longer endure the pain of living. I love him, he was no coward.

sarah hill on June 21, 2008, 9:43 AM

there are circumstances in which suicide may be justified: chronic pain, incurable disease which will progress for months or years until the individul is a vegetable, paralysis, etc..

then there are those who end their lives through unclear and illogical judgment due to mental incapabilities such as depression, anxiety, pschyzophrenia, etc…

if the former individual is making a decision rooted in logic it can make sense.

and i just realized i can’t really speak on the latter example. it’s just too damn complicated.

anmari reyes on June 28, 2008, 1:16 AM

Life, death , and change

anmari reyes on June 28, 2008, 1:17 AM

I think its not bravery or cowardice at all… It’s simply a choice…something that you decided to do because you believe it’s the only solution…you may want to read my article regarding life, death and change.

James Coughlin on June 29, 2008, 12:06 AM

Life is wonderful, and should not be wasted, unless you are trapped in a room surrounded by flesh/brain eating zombies and you only have one bullet. Or if I we’re trapped in a room with Nancy Grace

Jon Baum on July 26, 2008, 8:26 PM

I really don’t think it’s our place to say. It’s easy to judge other people when they do it. But we don’t consider what we would do if the situation came up in our own life. A lot of people if they are honest can think of an extremely dark time in their life when suicide seemed like a good idea. I know I can. There really isn’t an easy answer to this question.

Shi Hyung Park on October 27, 2008, 12:37 AM

I think suicide is what a pure coward does. Think about your love ones. They’ll be devastated with the pressure blaming themselves for the rest of their life. Who knows it may cause a chain reaction and may cause your love ones to commit suicide.
But, if it’s like to save a life or something now that’s something else

Shi Hyung Park on October 27, 2008, 12:40 AM

Oh yeah and there’s something called ANTI-DEPRESSANT USE IT!

Morgan L on October 30, 2008, 4:06 PM

In my opinion, suicide, in most cases is the easy way out. In some cases it can be labeled the brave thing to do, but in your every day life, suicide is an easy way out.

I do not know if any of you have read The Awakening by Kate Chopin, but in that book, the protagonist dies by swimming out to sea and purposefully drowning. Her death was the only way she could escape the classic mold of women of her time, and it took much bravery on her part to be different and dare to defy.

Momo Smith on November 11, 2008, 10:54 PM

well………in early japan suiside was used not to run away butt not to get imprisind so they cut there stomacs in a sqaure …………… but i guess now yes it would be cowerdes