A 'reason' connotes plan. We anthropomorphise concepts all the time and this is a classic. Substitute the word 'cause' for reason and most of the nonsensical and deluded ideas held to by the faithful wither and die. 'The reason the sun comes up is that God designed it to happen that way according to his plan', would be a primitive example of what I mean. This is not something you'd expect thinking people to still subscribe too... and yet...
In a fully automatic and self regulating universe, one that operates on principles of natural selection then the universe is the way it is because that's the only version that could have survived. No need for a reason or plan, just a sequence of events. The causal world is the only world we experience, even those wishful thinking abstract concepts in our mind that fire our imaginations are products of the causal world. There is not one thing in any of the worlds holy books that could not have emanated from the mind of a man. That's a bit of a clue I think. Most of it is just dull prose and tedious over-ripe imagery.
'God' would have to be one of the worst and most unsupportable reasons for anything.
Discuss
HerbieP on September 18, 2009, 4:11 AM
Causality and its relationship to divine watchmakers is an interesting subject to me. One could imagine a creator god that devises the whole mechanism and then just sets it in motion, perhaps including freewill as a random element. There is a spectrum with this kind of creation at one end and a creation that requires constant input and manipulation at the other. Believers of most religions seem to be divided about where they site their view of creation. For some prayers are still answered. For example the disease is a product of the mechanism and the interference of ‘freewill’ whilst the cure is divine manipulation by a loving god in answer to prayer.
And entirely absent creator god just doesn’t seem to satisfy, it’s too remote and doesn’t achieve the ‘personal and loving’ descriptors, whilst a constantly meddling magician god is just not credible to all but the most scientifically illiterate. Ever since Copernicus we have had no need for a god to constantly sustain the mechanism of the universe. He retreated further after Kepler and Newton. Further still after the formula of Huygens were well understood. We became aware that the universe followed consistent rules of causality. We began to suspect that interference from a god was not only unnecessary but also would be contradictory in that a meddling god who had built a self-perpetuating mechanism would be an affront to his own creation.
It is remarkable to me that many in and advanced western nation such as the US still understand the universe as a battleground between gods personified as Yaweh and Satan actively struggling over the world and causing events for which the natural mechanisms have long been well understood.
dresses size6woman on September 18, 2009, 10:00 AM
Exactly, there’s a reason for everything. Like when you have troubles, there’s a reason for that. Maybe it is for you to be strong and God is testing your faith in Him.
tim hall on September 18, 2009, 1:21 PM
Four thousand years ago in Cusco Peru the farmer thought that sun and rain were gods. If he could have reasoned better, he could have saved his seeds for the best growing season. By holding on to this assumption, later led his people into bashing the heads of their eight year old boys to give their dead bodies up for offering. Four thousand years ago he was not smart enough to make marks in the dirt. “Primitive math” to figure out seasons. But his followers two thousand years later produced an outstanding calender. They could do the math and build structures at zero tolerance that would withstand centuries of earthquakes. Why were his followers still bashing their sons heads with rocks? They knew the truth but held on to a custom. Why is human emotion so much more profound than other animals? Is it reason? Can humans perform without wild emotions?
dresses, So you are no longer holding on to the Pagan derived exerpts of the Bible? Now science makes it rain and God teaches the folks of Kansas to be humble? God directs science? God puts the first heroin into your son’s veins? God mangles bodies beyond recignition and lets them live or die? Does he play with loaded dice? Only a fool would still believe such.
Bryan Cridlebaugh on September 19, 2009, 5:44 AM
Given every possibility, there could be a reason for everything..
Bryan Cridlebaugh on September 19, 2009, 6:22 AM
I think there is a reason for everything and the reason is to live. I don’t know. There’s probably a lot more to “it” than we’re aware of?
Verisoph sapiens on September 19, 2009, 8:02 PM
And I believe our existence is not due to the preferences of some fabulous Being: it’s just dumb luck.
Suppose there’s god sitting wherever he sits, contemplating all the universes he might create, with their various laws of nature, planets, creatures great and small…. and he chooses this one! I ask you: can this really be god’s best option?
Even given the existence of god, it is entirely a matter of luck that he would exist, since it is entirely a matter of luck that he should prefer this kind of universe. How can believers explain this extraordinary coincidence?
Perhaps god was created by an Ueber-god who prefers gods who prefer this kind of universe, but this would be a matter of luck too.
You see, it all comes down to Luck and COINCIDENCE!
Bryan Cridlebaugh on September 20, 2009, 12:40 AM
“COINCIDENCE!” One in infinity! Luck?
..and we keep guessing
sciencesaves on September 21, 2009, 11:48 AM
Unsupported theistic concepts survive simply because some see alternative viewpoints as less attractive or spectacular conclusions, even though it’s quite obvious that they’re fairly silly and primitive concepts designed to provide “answers” and crude moral values in a frighteningly chaotic and animalistic world beyond the understanding of those born into it.
Luck and coincidence are reality. I think people doubt their own abilities to alter cause and effect events by behaving in a reasonable manner, instead of assuming they have no freewill, and generating god concepts (suspension of disbelief) to fill the gaps that their psyche needs to operate in a rational way. Fear factors, sense of reward “loss”, and the desire of others to justify their own particular neurosis’ compels perpetuation, because there is no burden of proof requirement necessary to engage the faith/belief loop of “love”, (arrogance).
Religious belief prevents proper comprehension of religious belief…a true paradox, and not an asset for people who desire successful civilizations to endure and prosper on this planet, in my opinion…
Let’s focus on reality…and stop making ridiculous assumptions based on emotional needs trumping common sense?
Musycks on September 21, 2009, 9:57 PM
Herbie… nice summation lad. The irony of the impossibility of the type of God the monothiests have conjured up is just one of the dimensions of what you’ve mapped out. The paradox continues.
Dress sizes 6? I guess God propmted you to become a viral marketer?
Musycks on September 21, 2009, 10:00 PM
Tim… nice points too mate. thanks… and BC what if there is less to ‘it’ rather than more?
Thanks to verisoph and SS for good contribtions too.
kruse scott on September 23, 2009, 5:40 PM
there is more to it than less your information is bogus or unethical.
Musycks on September 23, 2009, 8:30 PM
Kruse, I’ll cite my references, and back them against any believers sources, tainted and biased as they are. I’ve seen both sides, as an ex-bleiver and I know their history is distorted and false.
kruse scott on September 24, 2009, 1:06 PM
that may true but making such assumptions is inadequate. i am on both sides as well i look at the cup 50% full as well as 50% empty. we all question our selfs every day is my perspective right or wrong. is what we learned for all these years wrong? this is why i don’t believe and believe at the same time.
tim hall on September 24, 2009, 6:28 PM
kruse, I use to set on the fence also. I thought “How can so many people believe in life after death for so long?” I decided to study why? Why the Pagans developed a belief system. Why eastern religions were different. Why monistic religion came so late to South America. Why waters ran backwards in biblical stories. Why dates in the Bible don’t always match archaeology. Why the kings and head preast wore a more pure crimson red while the lower faction of government/religious order had to wear a violet red. Why the monks seperated themselves from their kingdom to study on their own. Why the invention of Christianity was important to a small sect of Jews. What part did the mountains and water resources have to do with developement of religions. How did the trade routes infuence. Where was the best farmable land and when did it fail to produce. Some of this information lines up with biblicle stories while most don’t.
By just believing a historic book without ever asking why, I was just following 2,000 years of followers. By researching the history of tribes through linguist, archaeology, art and geology, I gained the understanding of why religions came about, what nature and wars had influenced which stories and so on. I don’t understand why someone would still believe in such a book with the grand access of information today. Why say maybe there is a god? Why not tell the truth about unknown phenomona? “we don’t know yet”
Musycks on September 24, 2009, 8:41 PM
Well said Tim… the short answer is we are a species of passive consumers I think… it’s easier to accept what’s placed in front of us, be it food for the stomach or food for thought. The dominant food deliverers will naturally hold sway with the majority of consumers. Christianity is the McDonalds fast food franchise of faith. It takes committment or guts to dig deeper, and when what you find does not gel with the ‘party line’ it’s even more difficult to keep digging. The information is out there, and if more people knew the actual history the church would be in even steeper decline.
As for Kruse being both a believer and a non-believer at the same time? well, it’s impossible of course. With logic like that he belongs with the faithful.
tim hall on September 27, 2009, 11:38 PM
Musycks, as an ignorant infant it will consume till it throws up. With time it learns. It grows into childhood and lushes after the artifitially enhanced commecials of smores bars. The adult assumes that the good people of General Mills are not pulling their leg about the nutritional value of these delishes cereal bars. Our good governments would not allow such. We pay taxes to justly audit that sort of thing. The child starts school full of sugar and falls behind learning. Same old story. The elite proclaiming that they are good educated people and the innorant never doutbing their product.
However, I think it is just that Kruse sets on the fence as long as he keeps seeking the truth. To just have a paradigm shift in belief without digging would be wrong even if the shift is to reveal the truth. I know you and S.S. hates this but I am with Kruse as long as he is seeking the truth through proven educational research perimeters. If he only takes the time to listen to atheist or religious blogs, or reading only religious teachings, I would say he has wasted his time setting on the fence. I know personally that I started on the river Nile and worked my way out from there. Well actually I had to back track to the cave paintings because I was studying imagery and the historians observations were so far off from what we new about primitive imagery we had to get the true meaning before we could learn about cuneiform on the Nile. What a good pain in the arse it really was.
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