Taking Christ out of Christianity:
Avant garde pastor teaches a new Christianity where the-way-you-live is more important than beliefs.
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'With or Without God: Why the Way We Live is More Important than What We Believe.'
(Published this week by Rev. Gretta Vosper, Toronto's West Hill United Church's minister for the past 10 years.)
Rev. Vosper argues that the Christian church -in the form in which it exists today- has outlived its viability, and either it sheds its no-longer-credible-myths, doctrines and dogmas, or Christianity is toast.
Vosper is considered one of the bright, if unconventional, minds within the United Church, Canada's largest Protestant Christian denomination, holding a Master of Divinity degree from Queen's University. She founded and chairs the Toronto-based Canadian Centre for Progressive Christianity.
A number of leading theologians in Britain - where the decline in adherents is more dramatic than in Canada - are on the same path, people like Richard Holloway, former bishop of Edinburgh and primate of the Scottish Episcopal (Anglican) Church, who has likened the Christian church to a self-service cafeteria stacked with messy trays of leftover food urgently in need of being thrown out.
Vosper says there's been virtually a consensus among scholars for the past 30 years that the Bible is not some DIVINE EMANATION; it is not The Authoritative Word of God For All Time.
It is a HUMAN PROJECT filled with contradictions and the conflicting world-views and respective political perspectives of its authors.
And yet, she says, the liberal Christian churches, including her own, won't acknowledge to the congregation that it is a human project, that it's wrong in parts and that -in the 21st century- it's no more useful as a spiritual and religious guide than a number of other books.
She says now that the work of biblical scholars has become publicly accessible, the churches and their clergy are caught living a lie that few people will buy much longer.
Like Bishop Holloway, Rev. Vosper does not want to dress up the theological detritus of the past two millennia with new language in the hope of making it more palatable. She wants to get rid of it, and build on its ashes a new spiritual movement that will have relevance in a tight-knit global world under threat of human destruction.
Posted By: MICHAEL VALPY
March 22, 2008
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080322.CHURCH22/TPStory/?query=mICHael+Valpy
Discuss
Mary Coyote on March 24, 2008, 2:06 AM
An argument for a 21’st Century belief system:
The Sun is our father in heaven.
http://www.bigthink.com/faith-beliefs/9020
pokój! on May 3, 2008, 10:48 AM
“the Bible is not some DIVINE EMANATION; it is not The Authoritative Word of God For All Time.”
This idea can be split. You can say the second part, and not believe the first part. This goes in saying that though the Bible is previously believed to be, word for word, the “divine emanation” of God, more people are willing to declare it “inspired by” God. Which doesn’t lessen its importance, but allows for human error in translations, and even original writings…
“And yet, she says, the liberal Christian churches, including her own, won’t acknowledge to the congregation that it is a human project, that it’s wrong in parts and that
in the 21st centuryit’s no more useful as a spiritual and religious guide than a number of other books.”The bible’s relevance as a guide will never be diminished to those who go to it in this way. I approach it with the same idea… that it is a guide. It is no more irrelevant now than it was when it was written.
Many people within the Christian church have brought this idea up. I have heard a few sermons regarding it, so its not like the idea has been ignored, its just being discussed. One of my favorite rebuttals was along the lines of…
If the Bible is considered divine and relevant to modern-day Christians, why did God not provide a means of easier translation? Why is it so archaic, and so seemingly hypocritical, and just plain outdated? The response would be along the lines of: If a book, a sole book, were to be your guide for life and spirituality and the affirmation of faith, would you want a bullet-point guide? Would you want a day by day, minute by minute outline of what and when and where to do and go? This removes the idea of free will; that God does not seek mindless drones, that blind faith is the most relevant styles. In short, as a guide for a messed up life in a crazy world, the Bible is fitting. It makes us think, and challenge, and doubt. And doubt is the seed of faith.
One thing I’m not getting from this post is what these “Christian” pastors are suggesting for the Christian community. What is their game plan. If we take the idea of Christ, and what he means to humanity as the logos, the way, the truth, and the light, we no longer have Christianity.
“She says now that the work of biblical scholars has become publicly accessible, the churches and their clergy are caught living a lie that few people will buy much longer.”
This is an extreme overstatement…
pokój! on May 5, 2008, 10:01 AM
Sorry that was “If we take AWAY the idea of Christ” in my 5th paragraph…
Mary Coyote on May 8, 2008, 2:47 PM
Pokoj posted: ‘The bible’s relevance as a guide will never be diminished to those who go to it in this way. I approach it with the same idea… that it is a guide. It is NO MORE IRRELEVANT now than it was when it was written.‘
’no more irrelevant’ means JUST AS RELEVANT
Thus your attempt to temper your religious beliefs with modern understanding is tossed away as this statement (couched by excessive negatives) states that Biblical condemnation of homosexuals is JUST AS RELEVANT today as when written 3000 years ago.
That biblical commandments to beat our wives children and slaves; to keep slaves; to kill ALL non-Hebrew inhabitants of the Promised Land; to offer Blood Sacrifice -that these ‘guides’ are JUST AS RELEVANT today.
Or are you saying that since they are IRRELEVANT today, that this means that they were actually IRRELEVANT when written. Thus the Bible today is IRRELEVANT.
The Bible is just as relevant as any mythology, as any expression of the Human Song, the Human Project, as any part of human history. It is inspired by god as is any spiritual expression and is debased and muddied by the human animal as is any spiritual endever.
To claim that your book is NO MORE IRRELEVANT than any other religious book is true.
pokój! on May 12, 2008, 9:00 PM
Hey coyote… thanks for the input… I believe we had a bit of miscommunication…
“‘no more irrelevant’ means JUST AS RELEVANT”
I know… I was trying to make the point that if it is irrelevant now, it was always irrelevant… the double negative was intentional…
It is my personal belief that the Bible always has been, and always will be relevant. In what ways is up to the reader…
“Thus your attempt to temper your religious beliefs with modern understanding is tossed away as this statement (couched by excessive negatives) states that Biblical condemnation of homosexuals is JUST AS RELEVANT today as when written 3000 years ago.”
Nope… see my above statement… I was not attempting any such thing. Regardless I do not think one half a sentence can destroy any of my comments (its not an argument, its a discussion, there’s a difference…)
“That biblical commandments to beat our wives children and slaves; to keep slaves; to kill ALL non-Hebrew inhabitants of the Promised Land; to offer Blood Sacrifice -that these ‘guides’ are JUST AS RELEVANT today.”
Taken out of context, yes… The seemingly hypocritical nature of the Bible is a testament to human misinterpretation. That is how I see it (one way.) The difference in the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament is a difference in HUMAN understanding and interpretations of God.
“Or are you saying that since they are IRRELEVANT today, that this means that they were actually IRRELEVANT when written. Thus the Bible today is IRRELEVANT.”
I was saying “IF YOU BELIEVE the Bible is irrelevant today, than you must also believe it was always irrelevant.” It was a small statement with an intentional double negative to try to place a side in the discussion that might be overlooked…
“The Bible is just as relevant as any mythology, as any expression of the Human Song, the Human Project, as any part of human history. It is inspired by god as is any spiritual expression and is debased and muddied by the human animal as is any spiritual endever.”
I do agree with you… however for Christians in particular it holds the place as our Spiritual guide… that is not to say we cannot learn from anything else… but we can use it as a means of discernment…
“To claim that your book is NO MORE IRRELEVANT than any other religious book is true.”
I wasn’t
———————-
So… (hopefully) clearing that up…
What are your comments on my comments of the actual topic?
pokój! on May 16, 2008, 1:10 PM
Coyote, check out this website, and the ideas of Rob Bell and others for info on how Christian thinking is evolving, while still remaining focused on Christ.
http://www.theopedia.com/Emerging_church
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