Before any discussion of faith and reason can begin we need to define the parameters as both words have diverse meanings. I would assume that when we discuss the coexistence of Faith and Reason, that we are discussing the mutually exclusive definitions of the terms.
Most of the comments I have seen here on this topic seem to come from folks who embrace mumbo-jumbo and insist upon blending science with mumbo-jumbo. For example commenter roakes argues that 'Faith and Reason are interdependent,' as if the last 500 years of western history was not Reason struggling to break free from religion.
Yet, even as most commenters (as of this posting) seem to be of this persuasion, most of the voting indicates that the silent readers disagree. Faith and Reason are separate approaches to truth.
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--Reason is defined as Logic; the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence. In Philosophy, reason is the faculty or power of acquiring intellectual knowledge, either by direct understanding of first principles or by argument.
Logic is the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.
--Faith is defined as a set of beliefs not based on logical proof nor material evidence; a system of religious belief. Such as a confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of one's belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion.
Not only is faith the body of dogma of a religion, but also the theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
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So reason is careful analysis to uncover truth, while faith is the acquiescence to belief without
evidence of truth. Faith assumes truth, while reason assumes that truth necessitates evidence.
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Now to those who say that Faith can illuminate Reason, I point to our history of struggle with Reason being attacked by Faith. Any such argument must rationalize this reality. Reason can illuminate Faith, and I have posted such an example:
The Sun is our father in heaven.
http://www.bigthink.com/faith-beliefs/9020
But to those who argue that Reason alone is all we need, I refer you to John Ralston Saul, Canada's preeminent philosopher and spouse of Canada's former Governor General who has published much to criticize a purely Rational approach.
So, if Faith and Reason are indeed compatible within Saul's parameter's, I leave that to you to prove.
Discuss
Musycks on March 24, 2008, 10:27 PM
Coyote,
I am not unconvinced that reason is not all we need… but that should not close us off to the beauty we find in the mystical or the mysterious. Some call it spirituality as if it exists outside of ourselves… I think it is all within us personally, and will continue to find ‘trancendant’ experiences in great music, art and literature, in my daughters laugh and smile.. without a supernatural explanation to any of it.
I can love and feel and don’t need a sky-god view of the world to approve of it, in a gloriously indifferent Universe.
Mary Coyote on March 24, 2008, 11:28 PM
musycks:
A wise and mature approach. Our experiences of ‘spirituality’ are human experiences; they are expressions of what I call ‘the Human Song.’ They are the resonance of our genetic programming, the human Logos.
The brain can be stimulated by science and by the intake of psychotropic substances to produce authentic spiritual experiences. Metaphysical phenomena can be achieved by fasting and meditating: for example a father seeking his lost/runaway child. Medical doctors have come to recognize the power of ‘faith-healing’ or more accurately, the power-of-positive-thought. Married couples and families often report a seeming psychic ability to ‘read each other’s minds.’
There is much anecdotal and cultural evidence to support the concept of the Human Spirit.
Musycks on March 26, 2008, 3:32 AM
well I’m a sucker for a good song… do you know the Joni song ‘Coyote’? mid-seventies gem from the Canadian genius?
anyway… when music and art are far greater creations than religion, I get peeved to put it midly when the godly amongst us push this ‘full of original sin, not worthy’ claptrap.. the beauty that men have created, which is in my opinion, part of us, not other than us, dwarfs the narrow clerical constructs which are mostly ignorant and insulting. For thousands of years they have held sway, and what do we have to show for it?
About time to re-dress the balance, and even though some atheists struggle with the mystical part of man, I am open to any positive concepts that distill this into something meaningful.. like great writing or composition.. as mostly what passes for a spiritual experience these days for people is purchasing a new plasma tv! so I enjoy the angle you are coming from….
sciencesaves on April 8, 2008, 2:27 PM
coyote, I agree with your viewpoint, and you make your cases well. Honestly, I don’t believe that we have learned enough about how the human brain operates and the many, many variables that affect responses. Faith (spirituality), is a concept at this point – until we discover more scientific evidence. What do you think?
Mary Coyote on April 13, 2008, 1:32 AM
I think that our faith should be enlightened by our knowledge of the universe, rather than insult our intelligence. But, I do not believe that science is the cure-all, because, primarily, science consists of only that which we can prove, or almost prove. Thus all-that-has-not-YET-been-proven is ignored or worse, derided.
Science is a very useful tool for determining an objective reality, but unfortunately for a purely scientific approach, humanity is subjectively driven. As posted elsewhere here on Big Think, the placebo experiment: where a patient receives pain alleviation from a saline injection, believing that injection to be pain medication. This offers proof that the objective world is not the be-all and end-all.
Thus the need also for subjective tools to measure and comprehend the depth of the Human Spirit and experience. And this is where faith has to a large measure let down the modern human consciousness. Why? (I don’t mean How, as we are mostly aware of that.) Faith has not been able to keep abreast of our increasing pace of assimilating knowledge, and as you suggest, has entrenched rather than adjust.
Lucky for us, the goddess has liberally sprinkled the earth with psychotropic substances that lift the veil of both religion and science, and give a shaman-like view of the quantum nature of reality. Thus it does not matter where we turn, if we seek, we will see some truth.
Perhaps not the best conclusion to an argument of Faith v/s Science, but an introduction of a Third Way, rather than this dichotomy. I instinctively reject a black/white approach to a colorful universe.
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