Big Think

Mark Powers commented on How Can Eternal Damnation Be Justified? on June 23, 2008, 3:56 AM

Yes, I realize I misspelled sulphur in my previous diatribe. I hope you'll all still respect me in the morning.

Mark Powers commented on How Can Eternal Damnation Be Justified? on June 23, 2008, 3:50 AM

Michae1803:You're right about the Code of Hammurabi. That was what I was searching for in my memory banks when I blurted out Gilgamesh, which is of course the "great flood" story predating the Genesis account of Noah. My apologies for being sloppy. Guess I shoulda Googled Gilgamesh before I made the entry, to prevent just such a faux-pas.Now, on to my next potential foot-in-mouth experience: From my reading of the New Testament, which is not, I admit, comprehensive, I have not encountered any descriptions of Hell as a place where the damned are simply isolated from God. There seems to always be an element of physical violence in the descriptions---"lake of fire", "torment", etc. So, okay, for the sake of argument let's assume those threatening terms aren't meant to be taken literally. Assume the NT's authors were using hyperbole to drive home the point that Hell is an undesirable destination. Assume that there is no literal physical torture, and that Hell is "separation from God", which many modern Christians do embrace as an apt interpretation. Now we've moved from corporal punishment to solitary confinement. From my layman's POV, that's analogous to a child's parents eschewing spanking for the more civilized "time-out". I still have a problem with being put in time-out forever. It implies that once a person has shed the physical body, there is no more chance to learn a lesson. Zero mercy from a supposedly-merciful God. Wear your dunce cap and put your nose in the corner forever. Still sounds excessive to me. Any punishment that goes on without end seems cruel to me. Call me a bleeding-heart liberal, or intellectually stunted (then again, please don't do that, it would be mean), but I don't get it.Maybe it's my difficulty with the concept of eternity as a timeless state that is tripping me up. Without time, there seems to me to be no frame of reference for events. Without time, nothing can happen, since time is the interval between events. If eternity means "outside of time", how can there be any thought? Thinking takes time. If there is no perception of time, how can anything be experienced or contemplated? Without time, how can one feel lonely? How can one feel anything, or even be aware of one's own existence?Help me! I'm bogged down in metaphysical quicksand! And still, I'm waiting for someone to be an apologist for the fire-and-brimstone scenario. Will no one take up the gauntlet? The "Hell is not a lake of molten sulpher" and the "eternity contains no sense of time" arguments are moot points in light of the question I asked.I'm not saying any one of you is wrong; most of you have thoughtful, valid points. Some of you are admittedly better-read than I am. Most likely, I am asking the impossible, which is, in essense, for someone to present a remotely viable justification for immeasurable cruelty.Tens of millions of Americans believe in the horribly violent version of Hell that I am decrying. Surely one of them will step up and play "deity's advocate" for that version. I will check this site as often as time allows (uh, oh, there I go mentioning time again), but I won't be holding my breath.

Mark Powers commented on How Can Eternal Damnation Be Justified? on June 18, 2008, 1:39 AM

tiak:I gather from point 2 of your last entry that you are under the impression that our modern thinking about fairness and reciprocity is different from that of Biblical times. The "eye for an eye" concept, meaning that severity of punishment should not exceed the severity of the crime, is right there in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and is "borrowed" from texts that are even older than that (Gilgamesh, I think, but I may be mistaken). The concept of proportional punishment is not modern in origin. It just seems that proportionality applies to us humans but not to God.

Mark Powers commented on How Can Eternal Damnation Be Justified? on June 18, 2008, 1:21 AM

badwims67:You didn't say how your dad responded to the question. Would he want you to suffer for eternity for rejecting him?

Mark Powers commented on What is the appeal? on May 27, 2008, 5:39 PM

I posted a question in February addressing the question of crime vs. punishment, entitled "How Can Eternal Damnation Be Justified?" I only got a couple of replies, but they agreed with me: equal punishment for unequal sin is not reasonable.It has been explained to me by several Christians (who happened to be Southern Baptists) that to God, all sin is equal. To go against God's will is to deserve eternal torture, no matter what the transgression.Someone please give us a reasonable argument for this. We're waiting.