Big Think

Matt Pidlysny on September 13, 2009, 10:29 AM

Yeah, but just because the ground is mushy doesn’t mean there’s a guy on a chair.  You said it yourself, it’s metaphysics and numbers.  Whatever the Bible says Jesus has mentioned about the throne of God, that is where he sits in metaphorical wisdom. 

There are creators of humanity, true, but they observed themselves and made the perfect man for the job, Adam, to work as a breeder.  What we lack in understanding is the mechanics behind the creation.  We will come to see, but don’t pretend there’s some guy hiding from beyond the universe waiting to descend on a cloud :P True, that guy may be from beyond OUR universe (If there is multiples) but such things are undefined, and will remain until it happens.

What did you happen to stumble across that changed your faith in science?

tim hall on September 13, 2009, 11:49 AM

If science does not have every answer then why not magic?

It is because a magician can explain his solution. Intelligent design cannot. Intelligent design’s base is from mythology. Experts in mythology can prove their solutions. (how the magic works to fool the eye.) Science has the better reference guide. Why not science untill history can show better reference? Teach our children with the best reference we can find. Don’t clog their heads with myth or even chance of myth.

Musycks on September 13, 2009, 8:32 PM

                                        Tim… explain myth as myth and there’s no problem. Explain myth as science and we’re sunk. There’s the rub.

I think ‘order and spiritual aspect’ in the terms SS has couched it does not necessarily automatically invoke some ‘outside’ creative force as the religionists would have it. I think you can look at the natural selection derived ‘order’ and the infinite beauty in the universe and see a poetic and romantic dimension that is beyond gasses and liquids and solids and quantum interactions… but that’s just how humans give these abstract things meaning… that we might have terms to understand and explain the ineffable and sublime. That is territory the religious attempt to claim a monoploy on, but that’s not the case. Atheists have trancendant and sublime experiences too.. an annoying fact for the faithful I’m sure.

Verisoph sapiens on September 13, 2009, 11:37 PM

I agree with what Musycks is saying.

Perhaps it is so, that spirituality – the feeling of something beyond mortal life  had been important in survival during the Ice Age, and through periods of great deprivation. But whether or not  spirituality is god-given, or whether it actually evolved because it was needed, who knows….

Religious people might accuse scientist and atheist of unweaving the rainbow and never weaving it back again, but that is just not true.

tim hall on September 14, 2009, 10:55 AM

I would be careful in giving science too much recognition once it enters the rainbow.

Things that have order, eventually break down. Randomness goes on infinitely. This could be why the universe works so well. It has infinite number of orders randomly placed and moving about inside of it’s infinite mass. Don’t give it order, and it never breaks down.

The Bible works on the same precept. Don’t give it order and it does not break down.

Science tries to go into exponentially negative equations to create order or make a rainbow. At some point, order has to fail. (Fate) Let it go and stay random, it goes on forever.

So that what we detect while trying to govern life on earth, is that by creating forces of order inside of randomness (chaos), we can model the universe and continue to advance, as in nation building or communication building. RO may understand this better than any of us. He has spent his career creating order inside of chaos. Chaos being open markets (open universe)

Why should we think to try to govern more than what we know (exponentially negative science or religion) while open markets work better?

Another words, when presented with questions of things like harmony (Cats vs Saints), leave it alone. Don’t try to figure it out. They are all professionals. Put your money on red or blue and let it ride. One will prove to have better order in the end but we have no way of knowing because until the end, professionalism is chaotic. I am so far left of center that I don’t even believe that there should be Real-Estate on earth. So for me, there would be no fate, know end score. Just the Cats vs Saints having fun making goals and laughing at their mistakes while applauding their creativeness. “Like the universe.”Or create order in the open market but let the open market stay open.

tim hall on September 14, 2009, 11:02 AM

Go Cats! Go Saints! Go Colts! Go Bengals! How about them Vikings. Is that a running back or what?

Musycks on September 16, 2009, 12:27 AM

                                             Geez, Tim… you’re touching on sacred territory now with Australian Rules Football. That’s a religion worth following.

And Nick Riewolt is the Messiah obviously! even if Gary Ablett Junior is the son of god!

Verisoph sapiens on September 16, 2009, 6:06 AM

Guys, guys, -football, -pur-leeze!!!

and,

AFL/religion/Messiah/son of god, – cheezus!!!

sciencesaves on September 16, 2009, 9:16 AM

I wonder how many intelligent adults are unable to denounce religious belief due to perceived social obligations, or self-image?  The truly hypocritical seem to have the ability to suspend disbelief at will…how phony is that?

Ironically, I have more respect for those who don’t ride the fence, whichever side they choose.  Some seem simply predisposed toward the blissful ignorance of religious belief, which makes me question their reasoning skills, but it may be the best they can manage, with all the theistic garbage they’ve been exposed to.

Lack of adequate general knowledge tills the ground for the insidious seeds of the faith/belief paradox to grow.  Religious belief = Giving up searching for real answers, unless it jives with, or supports the myths?…Pity, and shame on those humans for perpetuating lies instead of truth. 

tim hall on September 16, 2009, 10:54 AM

SS, I would most definitely lie and set on the fence if I held office in a government. If your public is 35% true bible thumpers and another 60% holding fears of after-life, your atheist arse is out of there. That is why I think that early theologist and scientist had to show an element of unknown after-life. It would be very hard for a proclaimed atheist to get published in the free world as late as 1970.

I have two friends that cannot stomach evangelist, are against unfair tax schedules for the church, but still hold fears of God. They think of bible thumpers as freaks. But I can stand to be around them because I know that they don’t read, they are innocent. We never discuss religion because one side is informed while the other isn’t and furthermore do not care to be. I always know how they will vote 20years in advance. LOL

Musycks on September 16, 2009, 7:22 PM

                                                    Tim has identified a key issue… especially in the States. As long as believers are majority voters any anti-theistic slanting legislation is doomed. ie, rolling back tax breaks for delusional Religious institutions. US voters will not elect an openly athiestic politician… even super smart guys like Baz Obama are not immune. My money is on him being a secret atheist rather than a secret Muslim!

sciencesaves on September 18, 2009, 8:26 AM

“early theologist and scientist had to show an element of unknown after-life.”

And thus, stagnation of progress, bans on development that would save or improve countless lives, and very frustrated scientists forced to deal with unreasonable, irrational conclusion promoters.

Our founding fathers recognized that separation of church and state is crucial for a workable society.  What was once the greatest country on earth is held back by emotionally-driven religious nonsense, even in this day and age.

“Intelligent Design” is the last-ditch effort of desperate control-freak stragglers.  There is no realistic way to teach science while propping up primitive myth.  It hasn’t worked yet, and it never will, because it’s unrealistic.

I’ve always been fairly certain that Barry is enlightened, watch his expression when he’s forced to end speeches with “god bless America”…

Blank. 

tim hall on September 18, 2009, 4:55 PM

“our founding fathers recognized separation of church and state”  But that does not mean our government abides by it. The school voucher program has plenty of religioso favors to go around.

As I mentioned before, If the Bush regime would have overturned Roe Vs Wade, it would not make it so. Mothers will never allow coat hanger back alley abortions in our nation ever again.

I’m saying we are still governed under religious ideology. Can corporate America better keep a leash on it’s tax payers with this ingrained ideology? How could real-estate use this christian ideology to promote who gets educated and who don’t. Do churches pay the same tax on a parcel of property in your community. Why was not that property developed with housing, like the rest.

tim hall on September 19, 2009, 11:07 AM

What I am trying to bring into realization is that religion is always playing in the background and we continue to accept it and support it through taxation, unequal lending rates, unequal property values, and the list goes on through every aspect of our lives.

They put up a new subdivision of housing. The five acres on the corner stays barron for the first five years. You wake up one morning and there is this gothic struture towering over your home. What do you think happened?  Was there a deal worked in the developers original plans? Why didn’t he reveal that the land was donated to the church before I built my home? What breaks did the developer receive from the city planning comission?