Big Think

Verisoph sapiens on August 13, 2009, 11:39 PM

It sure is 2009, where faith healing and other dangerous nonsense are not going to go away, on the contrary, these is growing despite all scientific recearch and information available.

It seems to be a loosing battle

Faith-healing is insane not because faith-healers believe lies but because they put those lies into practice and expect miraculous results.

Wee, it’s not only insane, it’s criminal.

Verisoph sapiens on August 13, 2009, 11:40 PM

Well, it’s not only insane, it’s criminal.

tim hall on August 14, 2009, 7:29 AM

Forever Dealing With The Devil Without Use of Snake Oil.

My wife was diagnosed with a severe case of the devil’s disease that left her with only a 2% chance of survival of two years. But the 2% industry standard was based over a 10 year study. Within the past ten years, science has developed combinative poisons with balanced chemicals that better support life while giving the devil his do. We have surpassed the two year mark and set our sights for the five year mark. Instead of reaching out to any spirit of false hope, we ask our oncologist to poison her to the break of disaster. I kept everything that she could come into contact with ultra sanitary and force fed her as you would a snake with recommended doses of vitamins, food stuff and poison. I took time out, as did her children to walk her 1.5 miles every other day, with some days only capable of achieving the half mile mark. In my opinion, her body was able to survive the huge amounts of poison in order of: 1. science, 2. chance, 3. gene pool, 4. will to please loved ones.

Residing in the Bible Belt, we had thousands praying for our family. We did the right thing by going along with them in order to ease their emotional stress. We are not fools. We know the devil is lurking in the dark. We are grateful for our extension and nervously await our next quarterly report. Just so happens our 3.25 year report came in yesterday and the devil was in check. Mates! However, our diversely religious friends have long gotten over their original emotional fear thinking maybe that their Gawd was just. We have no qualms about thanking all brave chemist of our world for their dedication in dealing the devil his do that allowed us any extension of life. These are our true saints of humanity. Pray away if you must. For we are true believers in all mankind living with the least amount of emotional stress in order to achieve the most happiness out of an unknown number of days.

Get it right or don’t get it at all. Reporting from the depths of hell.

sciencesaves on August 14, 2009, 10:17 AM

Hi Tim, sorry to hear about your wifes ordeal.  Good thing she’s got you there with a down-to-earth perspective on things.

My sister in law is in a similar situation, and I understand how difficult it is for all involved.

My avatar is in reference to our fairly recent abilities in the medical field regarding realistic options, as opposed to desperation and helplessness, which has been the norm for a very long time.

Faith/belief practices may promote pseudo-optomism, but its cutting edge medicine from dedicated professionals that actually provides solutions, or at the least, a realistic method of dealing with previously unalterable afflictions.

Hang in there, friend!

Mike in Ohio

Luke Allen on August 15, 2009, 1:05 AM

ummm… faith is all we have if it is a determined dead end right? I mean I don’t support snake oil salesman either but if it’s death regardless, or praying for a miracle, why wouldn’t one choose praying for a miracle? I pray regardless if it helps or not and Dr. Newberg’s (Neuroscientist) most recent book indicates it does; Does Neuroscience no longer work for you dogmatic atheists?

sciencesaves on August 15, 2009, 10:20 AM

Faith in realistic possibilities is not the same as purported faith in religious concepts.  Pascals wager explains the reason why so many confused folks get caught in the f/b paradox, or ride the fence between fantasy and reality because they don’t have the courage to commit either way.  (Yes, I think it’s courageous to commit either way, but I take pride in finally getting past the primitive mode of thinking) 

It may be the toughest mental challenge a human can conquer.  As a long term fence-rider, I can tell you that its not a pleasant experience, and we have the religious speculators to thank for it.  In attemting to provide meaning in life, they’ve saddled the unaware with a horrible choice that need never be considered, and claim morality as the goal.

Ridiculous. 

Luke Allen on August 15, 2009, 10:41 AM

Ridiculous why? Whether you want to talk about how much we don’t know (biology, chemistry, physics, cosmology, all current “sciences” have more questions than answers.) or the fact of potential more advanced species on our own earth (Boskops). Definitive statements aren’t courageous SS they perpetuate a different myth; that atheist actually know anything more than theist is laughable and actually quite sad. 

There is no more primitive mode of thinking then, I know; even if I don’t know.

SS I respect you, but all you’ve done is throw off one mystical form of knowledge for another.

tim hall on August 15, 2009, 2:35 PM

Luke, For me it only becomes myth, if all logical research is studied. If one studies religion from the side of only religion (monks writings, gnostic writings, etc), that is not realistic research. Realistic research involves the study of why someone wrote? what was in their history? where? what was happening at the moment? what might have been their agenda? what was the disputed agenda? why was it disputed? the disputer’s history? Excuses of lost information are lost excuses.

Science determines it’s truth not from what a large number of humans happen to believe, but from agreeing as a group that they have covered every possibility and have put it through every test, trying to force it to breakdown.

The huge difference is, when using the same logical testing, the religious model gets splintered into a mess of ancient worshiping of unknown science, collective fables, survival laws, and the list is enormous. When confronted with an explanation, there becomes a new list of, improper linguistic research, distorted meanings of early art, and right in ones face of story manipulation to please region’s current cult agenda.

Your comparison of science to mythology must be coming from some emotional instability to refuse to fully study history. To take it apart piece by piece as the scientist or a mechanic does in order to fully evaluate it. Some minor emotional thoughts are hard to put into the mirror and truly examine. You have to break it down and ask yourself why and what self emotions may be influencing my thought.

It is your/our responsibility to take history apart piece by piece with absolutely no emotion or preconceptions in order to find truth. It is your/our responsibility to use every educational tool that man has learned to date. This is how responsible humans learn in order to better provide a future for the world.

Not to say that mythical believers do not have plenty of skepticism. They are the first to admit that their beliefs are full of wrong turns, out right false truths, false profits, etc. Likewise, science as an established cult (the science establishment) makes a distinct divide between theory and truth. (disregarding profit driven commercial visual communication)

If you have some mythic belief that you have put to logical modern tests, please let us know. We would like to have the chance to test it for ourselves. If you expect us to believe in unnatural causes, without taking them apart and vigorously testing them, you are barking up the wrong tree Luke!

The reason why neuroscience works for us, is because we have tested it and evaluated it as biological fact that emotions play a part in healing. What the emotions consist of,  hope, prayer, sustainability, has no known value other than positive emotion is better than negative emotion. If you have studied something different please reveal it.

Hang in there Luke, we can nail this bugger before years end. Thanks much for coming!

Luke Allen on August 16, 2009, 1:08 AM

Hey Tim,

“If you have some mythic belief that you have put to logical modern tests, please let us know.”

I’ll speak plainly in answer: I’m a Christian due to the depth I find in Jesus thought in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. 

The logical modern tests that I’ve put it through are the standards of time (Jesus has taught millions for 2009 years now through those words) Whereas, Not Stephen Hawking or any current guru, saint, or genius could write a book that would project into 2009 more years and still be teaching and guiding the leading genius’s of 4018.

Whether you want to chat with Dr. Newberg (a brilliant Neuroscientist) who states: “God is great-for your mental, physical, and spiritual health.” or Dr. Collins (A leading Genome researcher): God isn’t able to be taken out of the equation for any “deeper” or “truer” understanding of our world.

The two methods I try to invoke to logically defend my God is Cosmic size and I attempt to attack the erroneous idea that humans are the pinnacle of evolution. Occasionally I’ll point out the flaws and errors of “purely scientific” reasoning.We still can’t “scientifically” completely explain emotions and their differing of effects on individuals in their entirety, and hence, if one is completely and only scientific one must also eliminate their subjective experiences and I find that as ludicrous as people who attempt to use their subjective experiences as a reason to make objective claims.

In my world, I live in a very insignificant speck of dust in the universe, I’m not part of the most intelligent species in the universe, And I don’t discredit the subjective feelings or objective truths that comprise all humans. Neither do I place more importance on either feelings or truths. I place them in different realms of consciousness and just like my eating habits, I choose variety over monotony. 

It’d be horrible, for me, to either be a priest concerned only for the next life or the ardent materialist claiming this is all there is. Jesus and my worship of his depth doesn’t allow me to do either.

What are your beliefs Tim? Maybe we can nail those buggers by year end? 

Stay Strong!

sciencesaves on August 16, 2009, 9:59 AM

Well put, Tim.  Luke, it seems you’ve determined that faith/belief is something that you require to create mental stability, and you are certainly not alone in that thinking.  Sure, the JC teachings have meaning, and I agree with most of the basic stuff like love more than hate, etc.

Some of us folks simply do not need or want to engage in religious activity, because the basic truths become self-evident to us, and pretending to agree with all the added myth is insulting…we’re not impressionable children that have to be bribed with empty promises backed up by fear factors and unrealistic closed-minded thinking.

You’re so close to enlightenment, and I think you’re one of the more realistic believers, so instead of saying “Why not?” to religious belief for the sake of emotional comfort, or social “acceptance”, perhaps you should try to understand that the non-religious can arrive at the same destination without irrational thinking or behavior.

Meaning in life is not something that you can gain by fooling yourself into thinking along religious lines.  It’s called the “beautiful lie” for a very good reason in the fact that it is a simple mind-trick for those who give up on searching for actual meaning in life, based on truth and knowledge, as opposed to impossible conclusions designed to divide, delude and control humans.

“If it works for me, then it must be real”  ???  (not a quote, persay, but an evident observation)  I’m ready and willing to believe in almost anything, as long as there’s substantial evidence that compels me to believe.  So far, superstitious religious belief is batting 0 for trillions, it’s just the fear-factors providing life-support for it…

There’s got to be a better way.

Luke Allen on August 16, 2009, 2:08 PM

SCIENCESAVES!!! I’m going Pokoj here, I’ve always admired how he could copy every word of what someone says and turns it on them so here it goes :> 

 “Luke, it seems you’ve determined that faith/belief is something that you require to create mental stability, and you are certainly not alone in that thinking.  Sure, the JC teachings have meaning, and I agree with most of the basic stuff like love more than hate, etc.”

I don’t require it is required from me from the depth I find in the study. I’m pretty alone in my understanding and depth of knowledge of biblical truth but I understand the simple point you were trying to make. If they have meaning superficially do you ever wonder if they could have a deeper meaning?

“Some of us folks simply do not need or want to engage in religious activity, because the basic truths become self-evident to us, and pretending to agree with all the added myth is insulting…we’re not impressionable children that have to be bribed with empty promises backed up by fear factors and unrealistic closed-minded thinking.”

Added myth should never be “insulting”. Myth comes from some truth the example I always use is a nuclear holocaust: if this even was to come the fact that humans can communicate thousands miles away from each other via a medium like the internet would become mythical to the surviving generations. hence, we currently live in a state where it could easily just be myth a thousand years from now. I don’t think my understanding or studying of myths makes me an “impressionable child”. Do you think so SS? 

“You’re so close to enlightenment, and I think you’re one of the more realistic believers, so instead of saying “Why not?” to religious belief for the sake of emotional comfort, or social “acceptance”, perhaps you should try to understand that the non-religious can arrive at the same destination without irrational thinking or behavior."

Brother I appreciate the compliment but reject its implications. From this statement what holds me back is “irrational thinking or behavior” and I can’t accept I’ve been either irrational or behaved incorrectly resulting from my religious belief. Non-religious arrive at a “same destination” with the presumption their way is the only logical way and I find that thought simply ridiculous.

“Meaning in life is not something that you can gain by fooling yourself into thinking along religious lines.  It’s called the “beautiful lie” for a very good reason in the fact that it is a simple mind-trick for those who give up on searching for actual meaning in life, based on truth and knowledge, as opposed to impossible conclusions designed to divide, delude and control humans."

I can’t disagree with you more than this paragraph you state. I’m not “fooling myself” into thinking along religious lines. Religion and prayer isn’t a beautiful lie anymore or from any definition of lie I could understand… give me a definition of lie SS and I’ll prove my faith isn’t a lie. I’ve NEVER gave up on searching for actual meaning in life based on truth and knowledge and my knowledge isn’t designed to divide, delude and/or control humans… Do you disagree with me? the blanket statements about believers is what disturbs me about non-believers. It’s almost like you think we give our lives to Jesus and forget our minds still operate individually?

“If it works for me, then it must be real”  ???  (not a quote, persay, but an evident observation)  I’m ready and willing to believe in almost anything, as long as there’s substantial evidence that compels me to believe.  So far, superstitious religious belief is batting 0 for trillions, it’s just the fear-factors providing life-support for it…"

If it works for me it is real regardless, the reality is described from and two the observer and there is no “deeper” real then what one can define regardless what millions other defines. Reality is individual based my friend and I may not agree with your reality it won’t change it. I don’t think you are ready and willing to believe in almost anything as long as their is substantial evidence that compels you: If God himself spoke to you SS you would conclude it was just a neural activity that you yourself projected. Your understanding is as limited according to “your beliefs” as much as ANY BELIEVER!

The better way is there…

Stay Strong.

tim hall on August 16, 2009, 7:07 PM

Luke because you can find a couple of christian neuroscientist to make a religious statement, it does not bring me any closer in believing in your bible. Because of my vast studies I cannot believe in your bible. But, when confronted with certain situations, I may stop and think “what would Jesus do.” At the same I could think “what would Harry Potter do.” These are both great charectors with great messages. Although if you dig deap, you will find that some of the things written about Jesus where false profiting compared to the original charector.

What I would really like to know is, do you feel in anyway threatened by your lord or Jesus if you were to study this charector in a bipartisan way? From what I have observed of many Christians, is that if they question what some other human wrote in this book about this charector, that it is some kind of sin. To me that seems a lot controlling. I know it is suppose to be unlike reasonable thinking in our material world. But you seem like a strong thinker. Do you have these fears? What might happen if you did question? Could you be forgiven? Do you lose points on jugement day? Please don’t take this sarcasticly. I am searching for straight anwers not some believe and I will see propaganda. THanks.

Musycks on August 16, 2009, 8:24 PM

                                                    Tim, thanks for sharing your wife’s story. I know I’d be searching out the best medical help rather than the best prayers that can be offered. SS has a sis-in-law fighting cancer at the moment and my little sister spent most of last year enduring chemo and radiation therapy in her battle with breast cancer… thankfully she’s clear at the moment and about to head off for 5 weeks of hols with her kids in France and Italy! So hang in there and great good luck to you both.

Luke boy! the return of the champ! keep swingin’ sweet Jesus warrior, always nice to hear from you. I’ll let Tim bear the brunt of the argument (you know my take on it). Take care mate.

SS… watch out for storms little buddy on the SS Minnow…. and mutant dolphins!

Luke Allen on August 17, 2009, 6:22 PM

Tim Im not trying to bring you closer to my God, just defending my right to be logical and a believer.

To answer: "What I would really like to know is, do you feel in anyway threatened by your lord or Jesus if you were to study this charector in a bipartisan way? "

Not at all. Jesus gives us the parable of the unprofitable servant that allows me to study all things in their entirety completely open-minded. A lot more than the academics whose whole career resides in you falling for their BS. Just ask HerbieP how ridiculous string theory his to his beloved physics and you’ll see the folly of strictly falling for the scientific way. 

Do you have a better way Tim? Is Jesus through your “vast” studies a person who is on the level of “Harry Potter”? Do you find the same depth in reading Nietzsche as say… Bill O’Reilly? Tim it seems your great at using the socratic method to others, lets apply to you for a while shall we?

tim hall on August 17, 2009, 8:35 PM

Luke, my omniscient sky walker.

MattYou: 23:36 What is up with that?  “Shall come upon this generation” How can they mess that up. Generation means the same thing in 70 AD as it did in 1970 and it most likely will in 2070. How can people read what he said and turn it in to another time of destruction. They clearly only talk about Jerusalem and yet these preachers try to scare people into thinking that it means all time world over bullshit. Preacher man uses verses that have nothing to do with other verses to make shit up. This war and second coming is past history. How can you believe in your good book, yet deny what it says. So many folks are going to lose alot of points for fabricating. That book’s “end of time” ended in 70 AD. You can’t screw that up!

Then there is Matt:24:27,37,39  you may as well throw dice at that one. That whole second coming date is all over the place in regard to the fall of the Big Apple. It looks as though your reading from Sarah Palin’s memoirs. Luke and John had already left town and Pual was giving someone a reach around while he was writing? Hopping on one leg? Don’t you find a bit of humor in all the ignorant people of the past?

Then there is the smoke in the hand thingy that has totally basterised it’s original meaning coming from the New Testement which the smoke clearly desribes the destruction of the city by the Romans, not some made up son of god sitting next to the almighty causing the city to burn. They were so full of shit then and the preacher man trying to cover their arse is even more full of shit today. It is a thousand times woarse than anything we could possibly do on here.

Well, just comment on that crap, we will go from there.

sciencesaves on August 19, 2009, 9:11 AM

Luke,  all that brilliance, only to end with

“If God himself spoke to you SS you would conclude it was just a neural activity that you yourself projected. Your understanding is as limited according to “your beliefs” as much as ANY BELIEVER!"

I guess I just can’t convince myself that the voices/unexplained phenomenon in my head are god…?

My “understanding” is limited by my comprehension of involved science and philosophy, but it is not swayed by hearsay without evidence.  By claiming divine knowledge, and simply saying “You don’t get it” the case is summarily dismissed until you provide proof of claim.

The new religion seems to be charity-based, which is a good thing, and a way for them to appease their god and actual human beings, on a level one could rarely manage solo.

Slice & dice it any way you like it, it’s the same old tired premise grown from the seeds of ignorance, and tended by the gardeners of wishful thinking…  

tim hall on August 19, 2009, 1:50 PM

S.S. I agree with everything accept the charity statement. The switch from fear to charity is just a switch from one emotion to another, to attract the higher wage earner. They have to continually change strategy and adjust to what evolutionary edu. and common social structure dose. (evolves) They need larger bank rolls to afford to compete commercially via more extravagant meeting structures, duel big screens, diverse propaganda.(vis. com.) If they don’t compete against the devil, they lose.

But this is more subconscious decision making than conscious. They inherently have fantastic moral values to help others. The subconscious has to play on what ever asset becomes available. The socially unacceptable rituals had to be eliminated because of popular demand. Same for the religious war had to subdue itself, by popular demand, to moral war. Which to them are the same, just promoting great moral value, with a little subconscious “throw some win value in for the good guys.” There was never this evil George W. going after evil regime. This was a moral just / win one for the good guys / steal some funds from the working class.

If you follow history, (evolution) the Homosexual issue gets delt with locally before it can be a social norm.(thumbs up or thumbs down) That is why you see some churches softening compared to others sticking by their precieved writings and morals. This one will take many moons to decide a final outcome because the church, again has to ajust to social evolution and this issue is still in elementry stages with it’s diverse levels of acceptence with sociaty as a whole. Luke ,on the other hand, is a better warrior than that. Luke dose not give a rats arse about what the church or society does. Luke lives by precieved words of the book and can function just fine around social garbage. Is this Luke’s “Free-Will”?

Law of the land does not really work once social majority makes it’s final decision. If the religious right (RR) was able to enfleunce the Bush admin. to over throw Row Vs. Wade in the high court, it would not have changed the view or action of the magority of mothers in our structure and mothers always have the final say on family descision or it breaks down. The propaganda machine centered on coat hangers in back room alleys (fear) instead of morals in Roe vs. Wade. Therefore, the moral pleads from RR would never cause mothers to return to their daughters ally bucthering. For mothers are warriors like luke when it comes to family.

tim hall on August 19, 2009, 2:03 PM

That is alley butchering not ally or Allah butchering.  Sorry, those darn emotions  vs. time thingy again.

Matt Pidlysny on August 21, 2009, 7:51 AM

“If God himself spoke to you SS you would conclude it was just a neural activity that you yourself projected. Your understanding is as limited according to “your beliefs” as much as ANY BELIEVER!"

Haha, that god guy is funny.  But damn is this statement so correct, especially since it IS just neural activity.  It’s quite the illusion, but it seems in the aforementioned scenario, both arguments are correct!  The only problem is that through the power of influence alone has Luke defined it as God and SS defined it as neural activity. 

Influence is the devil, Luke.  Quite literally, you could define god as many entities but the desire for unification of truth took you on the path of least resistance.  You should break God down into parts, and then identify them all as individual Gods before you go about unifying him all on your own ;)

“I guess I just can’t convince myself that the voices/unexplained phenomenon in my head are god…?”

They never were.  You are one aspect of the universe, and thus everything in your head belongs to the universe…Well, it belongs to you but it’s like puppies, you own the parents, but when they have kids you also own the puppies. 

Seems we’re all puppies of the universe.  Our entire way of life, in every aspect, revolves around information collected through the senses and our own personal gravity based on that information.  Information accumulated differently defines a different gravity to any person interacting with the universe in any way, even with others.

tim hall on August 21, 2009, 9:36 PM

Luke has a valid point, we search and search and we have nothing. We know more about the universe and it’s elements. We can validate physics formulas. We can show probability. We can sense something, weather it be just emotion or an unanswered phenomena. Some even report hearing and interaction with something. But there isn’t any proof that we can explain to a non-believer.

But we have hope. And tomorow we will continue to search for answers. 

Luke has found something but can’t explain it to non-believers either. He has stories from other humans. But nothing he can prove to non-believers.

When I think about their eternal life belief, I realise that they have left themselves with no out. Their God played a mean trick on them.

Luke Allen on August 23, 2009, 1:13 AM

“I guess I just can’t convince myself that the voices/unexplained phenomenon in my head are god…?”

the voices/unexplained phenomenon don’t have to be God for you ScienceSaves but they can’t be simply interpreted from science. There are things beyond science that we experience and logically they are just as real as objective truths. All I try to state is that objectivity is the standard if applicable but in regards to eternity; neither,  atheist or theistic is either MORE scientific.

My “understanding” is limited by my comprehension of involved science and philosophy, but it is not swayed by hearsay without evidence.  By claiming divine knowledge, and simply saying “You don’t get it” the case is summarily dismissed until you provide proof of claim.

Hearsay without evidence? Proof of claim? I don’t claim as such. Never have. I claim that the depth and complexity of Jesus words transcends mere superstition. I’ve often showed just as much anger towards “lazy Christians” who are what you state with “divine knowledge” and they don’t even know what the man said. Again though I’ve never read any refutation on here from the obvious fact that Jesus is STILL teaching people 2009 years from his manuscript was recorded (trust me I know that the council of Nicea was when our “Holy Bible” was put together but Matthew, Markm Luke and John were circulating before the council) and the fact that NONE of our current “new scientific material” can project to teaching us in 4018. That is my best proof of claim but I concede it isn’t scientific.  

“The new religion seems to be charity-based, which is a good thing, and a way for them to appease their god and actual human beings, on a level one could rarely manage solo.”

Which is my main reason why I try to stop the generalized bashing of Christianity on here as superficial dogmatic idiots. Even if you disagree with our position; we can be logical, we can be helpful. Selah.

“Slice & dice it any way you like it, it’s the same old tired premise grown from the seeds of ignorance, and tended by the gardeners of wishful thinking…”

Not really. I often point out I’d prefer to think the way you do but my logic and understanding can’t allow me to. I’ve never been more impressed with any concept more than Jesus. 

God bless ya SS!