Big Think

David Gallo on April 8, 2008, 12:10 PM

you are right, it is impossible for man to discover all that there is all that there was and all that there will be, if something does then that is ‘god’, if it is written then that is the truth. but we have no access to the truth as we only have limited access to god. people have a hard time understanding whether it is they who hold their own fate and their own actions or if it is pre-determined. personally i believe that we can choose our own fate, but it has already happened and we are yet to uncover that that we will always choose. but we judge ourselves on the actions we perform and history will judge what course those actions will take the world on. time is linear but has many braches of possibility, an infinite number in fact.

i don’t know what point i was trying to make here, but this is where it has taken me. so i have chosen to come, but fate brought me here.

Jesse Akers on April 8, 2008, 2:02 PM

you were born outside of your will and you will die the same way

David Gallo on April 8, 2008, 4:19 PM

but do i have the power to make my own decisions? i know i can only choose from what is before me but, i still make the choice of right or left or up or down. is free will an illusion?

Faceless Atheist on April 8, 2008, 5:56 PM

Thats all good except for the part of keeping gods laws. Telling people to enjoy life while they have it is probably some of the best advice out there. Saying that humans have a limited capacity for knowledge, and will never be able to know everything, is to me a great truism. But when you say that we shold follow gods laws I disagree. This is the part that leads to problems. There are multiple systems of law that all atribute their authority to god. We have no way of knowing which is gods actual will, but it is most likely that all such laws are man made and only make the appeal to gain authority. It is better to say things like “we should respect all other humans and their right to live” rather than “we should follow gods law” even though many will say the first and the second are the same.

Jesse Akers on April 8, 2008, 6:17 PM

we should respect all other humans and their right to live" – is part of Gods law, and you complain of controlling and man made laws, yet thats exactly what you purpose to fix the supposed problem faceless,
when its been said better than i can say it i will paste from others ideas, here is one

Why God’s commands? How are they meaningful?
God’s commands make life better. The often misguided notion attatched to God’s commands are that they are arbitrary, boring, and burdensome. But the truth is that God’s commands, or ways of living, keep us protected from physically, mentally, and emotionally harming ourselves and others.
They are the solutions in how we are to act, resolve, and respond to all kinds of situations in life in a way that is nourishing to our souls and selfless to others.
God’s ways are the anchor that brings us life and peace in the midsts of our sin and blindness.

Jesse Akers on April 8, 2008, 6:18 PM

Gaileo- all except your birth and your death, wether you are an aborted fetus or a ruling king of a great nation you must suffer the same 2 realities of birth, living, and death, the living part is the only thing we posses any sort of control over, and God has given us lots of sound advice on how to live as happy as possible

Faceless Atheist on April 8, 2008, 6:26 PM

which set of gods laws are we to follow? those found in the bible, the koran, the bhagavad gita? They are not all the same. They actually propose very different laws as a result of being the laws of different gods.

Jesse Akers on April 8, 2008, 6:34 PM

look for the truth, dont practice what you cannot believe in, search for an answer before declaring the question as being illegitimate

i dont want you to follow me or any one religon persay, i want you to see the truth for yourself and willingly follow it, however society dicates minimal laws for the survival and functioning of society

i find no fault in the bible, many people will critisize it before understanding it, but the more i understand it the less i can criticize it because the truth makes you free from lies, lies that are intentional and the lies of ignorance

religon is a man made construct I AGREE however that does not =nogod

Faceless Atheist on April 8, 2008, 6:42 PM

I agree as well. But religion is man made and the laws each religion says are god’s laws are man made as well. Saying “follow gods laws” means following a different set of laws depending on what god you believe in. We need people to soften their religious convictions before humanity will start acting better towards each other.

Jesse Akers on April 8, 2008, 6:56 PM

i mentioned this before, but you say man made laws are bad, assuming that they are man made, but then you say that we should replace man made laws with MAN made laws… please explain

we will get into a discussion of truth whcih will lead to god i predict

Faceless Atheist on April 8, 2008, 7:38 PM

I say man made laws that mascarade as the laws of god are not as good as they seem. Man made laws can be good, but I think that when people believe their authority to be divine they loose perspective. Man made laws aren’t inherently bad because they are man made. Men can make good laws that are benificial for society.

Musycks on April 8, 2008, 8:28 PM

Jesuseeker.. religion is a man made construct, and so is ‘god’ in all of it’s forms from the spiritual to the ‘holy’ book rubbish. Please continue to selectively quote the nice bits from that appalling tome if you will, but all that is good and bad is found within us, not outside, and all your incantations can’t change that.

Do good where you can, harm no one. These are natural laws… why do you hunger so for big daddy’s approval? it’s demeaning.
Your philosophy reduces man to a flesh/trash vessle and hungers for the higher life of the spirit… so this life is worthless under your model.
Mine, for one, is not.

Denys Artasevych on April 9, 2008, 1:36 AM

Weather living by “gods” laws makes life better is subjective. for instance if i had to live acording to all these rulles i would probablly go insane.

But anyway heres the interesting thing about this passage. First it says “Despite all his efforts to search it out, man cannot discover its meaning. Even if a wise man claims he knows, he cannot really comprehend it.” and then it claims knoledge of alot of unknowable things "Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man. "

I think claiming to know the answer to the grand question of god. Meaning of existance, and all such questions is the greatest arrogance of man, and simoltanioully the greatest ignorance. Awise man will also admit that he knows nothing of god, or the lack of god.

sciencesaves on April 9, 2008, 8:31 AM

jesseakers, I am so glad that you continue to provide input to get people thinking! Absolute truth is boring. Once we achieve our next level of understanding, we then look at the next level, and so on. I love a challenge, which is why I enjoy discussions on the ultimate final frontier: The human mind. Keep up the good work, and keep on keepin’ on…

Jesse Akers on April 9, 2008, 9:47 AM

Why God’s commands? How are they meaningful?
God’s commands make life better. The often misguided notion attatched to God’s commands are that they are arbitrary, boring, and burdensome. But the truth is that God’s commands, or ways of living, keep us protected from physically, mentally, and emotionally harming ourselves and others. They are the solutions in how we are to act, resolve, and respond to all kinds of situations in life in a way that is nourishing to our souls and selfless to others.
expirence is the best teacher, but if we cannot learn from the past expirences of man we are of course doomed to repeat it

Jesse Akers on April 9, 2008, 9:51 AM

the message i wanted to emphasize was the unknowable ways of God, or you can call it the universe or mankind or etc.

from my standpoint the truth is objective, it works in all situations, truth is the very essence of the way things work, from human interaction to physical laws of the universe

it does require faith to begin to comphrend truth, faith that the truth exists and while it is not knowalbe to any one person over years of expirenc and learning from history we can make ourselves better as a whole

Faceless Atheist on April 9, 2008, 4:27 PM

where are we to find “gods laws”? preferably ennumerated. To say experience is the best teacher and that truth is objective seems almost a contradiction. Everyone has world experience, and no matter how much we get people will always disagree about these things. Its not like all people over 70 agree on everything suddenly, as a result of haveing so much experience.

Jesse Akers on April 9, 2008, 6:50 PM

lets say educated people of its past generations, like the majority of us who disagree with: genocide, state run religon, hate crimes, etc. etc.
and making ourselves better is a journey not a desitation to be completely cliche yet true about it

more later

Stone Riley on April 9, 2008, 10:23 PM

What version is the NIV that you mention?

The New English is my go-to version for most purposes, but for Ecclesiastes I still like King James.

BTW, I’m Pagan.

Jesse Akers on April 9, 2008, 11:46 PM

new international version- it is fairly common in america- i prefer king james as well in most cases, however this version of ecclisasstes is amazing in my opnion

why pagan? and what does that imply?

Jesse Akers on June 1, 2008, 9:27 PM

its 8 14 in case any of you missed it

sorry