Big Think

Luke Allen on March 25, 2009, 10:30 AM

This is another example of a illusion of alternative number that makes atheist so simple minded.
I don’t have to assume if they are right I am cast into the pits of fire. When you state: “They both make mutually exclusive claims on divine truth” Only to certain individuals who don’t actually read the texts.
Jesus said that ALL sins may be forgiven and the Koran gives individuals a chance to submit to Allah only, after their death.
Because atheist have to be so simple minded and put one in conflict with another there isn’t a common premise ground here. I have numerous Muslim friends who, if they don’t get to heaven, I don’t want to. And I still believe they will have to submit to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ but I think after death they will get to see that Holy blood.
So instead of making such simple allusion of alternative arguments think sincerely and recognize not all people can be put into the if Im in your out crowd of religion.

Luke Allen on March 25, 2009, 10:32 AM

number should be argument…

Faceless Atheist on March 25, 2009, 4:38 PM

All sins may be forgiven, but you have to repent in life. There is nowhere in the bible or in the qur’an that says we will get a chance to change our minds after we die. I can not believe you are attempting to deny that these religions are mutually exclusive. Jesus allegedly said “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me” (john 14:6). Seems pretty straight forward, if you don’t follow him you won’t get into heaven. And as for the qur’an,

“5.14. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.”

Again, rather straight forward. Christians are wrong.

“5.73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.”

I can only imagine that this “penalty” is hell.

You can’t really believe that followers of other religions can get into heaven, or at least you can not truly call yourself a christian or muslim while believing this. Both “holy” books make it clear that they alone are correct, and that people who follow other gods are doomed to suffer in hell for their mistake. There is indeed a major conflict here, and I think you are simpleminded if you don’t realize it.

Musycks on March 26, 2009, 2:01 AM

surely after death is too late?… it’s a new one to hear it isn’t.
Even atheists might get a clue if after we died there’s a bolt of light and an old guy with a beard going..‘’now you weren’t really serious with this atheist shit were you’?!!
haha.. but of course the odds of that happening are for all intents and purposes exactly nil.

I know you’re an inclusivist Xtian… I just don’t think your holy books agree with you.

Luke Allen on March 27, 2009, 10:45 PM

Because to me the idea that trinity is three things that mean one in the same mean that if I know I’m the same today, past, and future I don’t have to specifically state also if you call on me in this name I might not hear.
I would state one can’t claim a believer in trinity but be angry if they call him God Allah or Yaweh its all the same if one believes Christ is GOD.

Luke Allen on March 27, 2009, 10:46 PM

Because in God’s eye a second and a lifetime is the same and I can’t know what happens on your deathbed… to argue when the exact moment of your death is, is just semantic. Does that make sense?

Musycks on March 28, 2009, 7:13 PM

Luke… not when your religion has bulit it’s whole pitch on conquering death? I would have thought what constitutes a humans death is one of more simple things we could actually agree on?

and your comeback to FA is admitting that to you HAVE to call Christ God?
or else be denied eternal paradise… that would line up with the thrust of your holy books for most Xtians who have ever lived.

So much for inclusivism.

Luke Allen on March 31, 2009, 1:33 AM

I believe that one would have to accept the sacrifice and divinity of Christ to get to Heaven. However, I disagree with most Christians on when one can accept Christ. I think I pointed out before but if not I will point out here; that I actually think a lot of Atheist will recognize Christ at their deaths before a lot of Christians. Jesus tells us in scripture that many will call to him Lord, Lord… and he will reply: “I never knew you” The Holy word is filled with the idea that one’s believes are only as true as one’s actions and that Jesus is the light of the world. How many Christians do you know that seem to be professing darkness? Truly, most the Catholics who taught you would bring to your mind dark thoughts versus light right? And let me be the first to state that with your inquisitive mind and thoughtful dialogue you have brought plenty of light to my heart my friend. Now from my perspective who would recognize on their death beds the light of the world more freely; The dark Christians or yourself?
What I am also trying to point out to FA is that Muslims are praying to my God when they pray to Allah. Trinity by definition is three things that mean one in the same. So hence, how could I claim a belief in the Trinity but deny entrance to heaven to one who worships a facet of it? They are three things one in the same and even one who worships just a Holy Spirit like I hear most of you atheist professing with your basically good human goo that is a genuine naivety but filled with so much Love I often wonder if the Holy Spirit fills you and your side with more optimism of the Holy triumph then myself.
All I’m saying in this long winded response is that the path to Christ is many varied and long. Lots who think they are saved will not recognize his light and lots who are convinced there is no God will worship his glory quickly upon seeing his truth.
All still included my friend.

Musycks on March 31, 2009, 1:47 AM

Luke… you’re too nice to be a Xtian.

But clear this up… I thought you said earlier you could convert AFTER death, now you’re saying it’s just the old deathbed conversion stuff? they pinned that on Constantine, so it goes back aways.

I just don’t see your texts support the idea of nice guys get a place in heaven, I think a person filled with love but who rejects Christ, be they Muslim or atheist misses out.. and you have to come to terms with that.

ps.. I’m having an email battle at the moment with my catholic friend who studied to be a priest for 6 years… you should see what we say to each other… ouch.

ps.. I’m having an email battle at the moment with my catholic friend who studied to be a priest for 6 years… you should see what we say to each other… ouch.Viva Las Vegas!

Luke Allen on March 31, 2009, 11:01 AM

I wish that were the case Musycks…
Deathbed or after death is semantics to me. Really like I told you before our whole lives are like blinks of an eye to the Lord and using a simple extrapolation technique from 80 years to eternity its easy to see the truth in that scripture. Therefore, is a second before death able to be used for Jesus to show you himself in his entirety? I believe that is the case. My texts continually state that “I am the light of the world” also “Do not be angry with those who speak blasphemy against me” etc. etc. therefore my position is consistent: The truth to the war is light vs. dark or Creationist vs. Destructionist. That and your desire to be on here is proof to me you’d fall on the creationist light side and for that I believe your my brother in Christ; whether you can recognize him now or not.
Stay Strong.

Musycks on March 31, 2009, 7:14 PM

ha… claim me for Christ if you want Luke.. but it is just an indicator that Xtians like yourself will see exactly what they need to see regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

I know your wizard/god trumps everything for you, but I totally reject any supernatural or spiritual dimension because I can find no grounds on which to support it.

But I say that with love and respect… which reminds me I gotta organise my excommunication at some point!

Luke Allen on April 7, 2009, 12:14 PM

Any spiritual dimension? What about the collective unconsciousness that Jung popularized with his scientific research? Do reject that dimension as well?

Musycks on April 8, 2009, 2:12 AM

I reject the existence of any third party sentient being who is interested in and who interfers in our causal universe based upon a reward/ punishment system.

It’s all within our brains..
no spiritual dimension required.

Luke Allen on April 8, 2009, 10:36 AM

Specifically psychodynamic perspective has 0 scientific validity to you?

Musycks on April 9, 2009, 9:00 PM

psychology is all about what is in our heads surely? I’m saying there is nothing external, no invisible third party influencing our ‘souls’ etc, judging and rewarding or punishing us…

The study of the brain, what we think and how it works will ultimately explain our succeptibility to bullshit religious/spiritual ideas I’d say. It’s our best chance at true understanding.

Happy Easter biggus.