All I can ask is how can a person be an atheist? In my experience it’s impossible. In this video Ezekiel Emanuel says he’s a practicing atheist but he goes to Synagogue every week and takes it seriously. That doesn’t make sense. If you’re doing that doesn’t that mean you believe in God? Or at least acknowledge his presence? Because the way I understand it. The only way a person can be a true atheist is by living a life that does not acknowledge and presence of God or the fact that He exists. Someone can to clarify some things here? No faith but lots of religion? Doesn’t that say something right there? If I’m not mistaken, in Judaism one is called to worship God and obey what He commands. Isn’t that by it’s simplest definition faith? If not then I would love to know what it is. Any insight to this would be very helpful.
Before I share an insight Ray I like to briefly touch on Richard’s post.
Richard I have followed many of your posts that have blasted my colleagues for their Christian beliefs (or maybe some of your friend are more guilty of this). So I’m somewhat disappointed to see that you are unfamiliar with the history of Judaism. The Bible that Mr. Emanuel described is the Jewish Scriptures (also know as the Old Testament in the Christian Bible). Long story short, the population of the early church is predominantly Jews who placed their faith in Jesus. Even Jesus was raised as a Jew. In the Gospels he is of referred to as Rabbi.(I obviously skipped over several thousand years of interesting history so let me know if you would like some supplemental information to further your understanding)
Now to Ray.. I took some time to briefly research the Synagogue and Book Mr. Emanuel mentioned in his video. The Synagogue claims to be affiliated with the Conservative Movement but says they are “an independent group with our own structure and agenda.” I do not consider this a negative but I mention it to say that researching the Conservative Movement will not get you very far in describing this Synagogue (in my opinion having once attended a Conservative Synagogue). There agenda includes no gender restrictions, human rights, and challenging interpretations. All of this is simply to say that their Synagogue may not hold to many Orthodox Jewish beliefs.
I can agree with Mr. Emanuel when he says that he attends simply because of its positive influence and the abundance of knowledge the other attendees posses. I think he is simply saying that he enjoys the people and is mentally stimulated by their insights. I cannot agree with his description of Judaism as a “religion of practice and not belief”. This being the crux of message cautions me because it doesn’t align with my understanding of Judaism.
Finally, his remark in the beginning, about not understanding the implications of God’s existence (if I’ve heard him right), tells me that he may not be as close to an atheist as he would like to admit.
I’m sorry Jon.
But I don’t understand your point. You accuse me of ignorance of the history of Judaism, which may or may not be the case.
My post was intended to suggest that Ezekiel Emanuel’s comments confirm my suspicion that being Jewish is more about belonging to a group, rather than subscribing to a set of beliefs.
You would have to agree that Judaism is unique among the three great Abrahamic religions in that it doesn’t actively proselytise outside the group. It does not actively seek converts. The fact that an atheist, in this case Mr. Emanuel, is welcome at the synagogue suggests that belief is not a qualifying requirement for inclusion. I am suggesting that Mr. Emanuel qualifies by membership of a race, being Jewish.
If I am wrong, I am happy to be corrected.
RO
I’m not entirely certain what you are referencing when you say the “three great Abrahamic religions”. I would generally agree with your statement that evangelism is not of top importance to the Jewish religion. I did however go to a Synagogue recently and wrote about my experience. This Synagogue was a part of the Conservative Movement as I mentioned above. On there website the is information on how to join them. I compare this to a group like the Masons, that you must be invited into by a member, having commercials on TV.
Also, in the Old Testament there was specific ways the Israelites were to proselytize non-Jews into their assembly. Throughout the Old Testament Israel is a light to their Surrounding Nations. If you look where God places they as they leave Egypt, the promised land is amongst several different people groups. The highway that runs along the Mediterranean is also next to them. In the book of Jonah, this prophet goes to a empire (Assyria) that the Israelites (and him specifically) hate. He task is to preach so that they might repent and God would relent from bringing calamity. I don’t know if you have much interest in the Bible but I only mention this because any part of Judaism (race, religion) affirms this as their Holy Scriptures.
In my first post I tried to guess why Mr. Emanuel goes to Synagogue (friends and interesting conversation). You may be also right, that he was born Jewish. I would imagine that just like other religions though, not all Jews actively participate in Synagogue.
One final thing to give an insight on Christianity. Some have made such an emphasis on evangelism that outsiders might get the impression that its all about getting people saved. Honestly this is also an emphasis of a lot of our Sunday services. It is also one of the negative results of Revivalism (Charles Finney, Billy Sunday, etc.). A current phrase that churches are using and being defined by is, “come as you are”. A paradigm shift that is also occurring is that church is less about a building and more about a people. So church is happening outside the building and often times with people who hold to different beliefs. So I would say in Christianity and in the church, belief is not a qualifying requirement for inclusion. This is happening slow and you will surly find an abundance of churches that will not even try to understand this thought. And so, they get stuck in their old models that are often less-Biblical.
I hope something in my response helped. Sorry if you felt like I was jumping to conclusions.
Hi there Jon.
You refer to an paradigm shift in the church towards inclusiveness embrassing “people who hold different beliefs”. You then argue that belief is not a qualifying requirement for inclusion. Have you just contradicted yourself?
(Sorry, I am being picky!)
The question I should ask is about the people without belief. As in the case of Mr. Emanuel, if atheists turned up at this new idea of a church, I would be more impressed. I somehow doubt that that would happen.
Cheers,
RO
Richard I’m a little confused about what you are referring to when you say that I have contradicted myself. Maybe you can explain.
I personally know quite a few people who have ongoing friendships with atheists. They are engaging their friends in conversation about their beliefs and vice versa. I don’t know if this is happening in a service but what I was trying to explain above (by describing the paradigm shift) is that people are the church .. not the building. Finally, I think you would be comfortable with me saying that everyone has and exhibits beliefs.
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Discuss
Richard Oakes on March 23, 2009, 6:12 PM
I have always suspected that Judaism is more about ethnicity. Does it qualify as a religion?
After thought:
I am reminded of the Ulster Protestant, “I may be an Atheist, but I am a Protestant Atheist!”
Ray Lamb on March 24, 2009, 12:02 AM
All I can ask is how can a person be an atheist? In my experience it’s impossible. In this video Ezekiel Emanuel says he’s a practicing atheist but he goes to Synagogue every week and takes it seriously. That doesn’t make sense. If you’re doing that doesn’t that mean you believe in God? Or at least acknowledge his presence? Because the way I understand it. The only way a person can be a true atheist is by living a life that does not acknowledge and presence of God or the fact that He exists. Someone can to clarify some things here? No faith but lots of religion? Doesn’t that say something right there? If I’m not mistaken, in Judaism one is called to worship God and obey what He commands. Isn’t that by it’s simplest definition faith? If not then I would love to know what it is. Any insight to this would be very helpful.
Jon Koresko on March 24, 2009, 2:53 AM
Before I share an insight Ray I like to briefly touch on Richard’s post.
Richard I have followed many of your posts that have blasted my colleagues for their Christian beliefs (or maybe some of your friend are more guilty of this). So I’m somewhat disappointed to see that you are unfamiliar with the history of Judaism. The Bible that Mr. Emanuel described is the Jewish Scriptures (also know as the Old Testament in the Christian Bible). Long story short, the population of the early church is predominantly Jews who placed their faith in Jesus. Even Jesus was raised as a Jew. In the Gospels he is of referred to as Rabbi.(I obviously skipped over several thousand years of interesting history so let me know if you would like some supplemental information to further your understanding)
Now to Ray.. I took some time to briefly research the Synagogue and Book Mr. Emanuel mentioned in his video. The Synagogue claims to be affiliated with the Conservative Movement but says they are “an independent group with our own structure and agenda.” I do not consider this a negative but I mention it to say that researching the Conservative Movement will not get you very far in describing this Synagogue (in my opinion having once attended a Conservative Synagogue). There agenda includes no gender restrictions, human rights, and challenging interpretations. All of this is simply to say that their Synagogue may not hold to many Orthodox Jewish beliefs.
I can agree with Mr. Emanuel when he says that he attends simply because of its positive influence and the abundance of knowledge the other attendees posses. I think he is simply saying that he enjoys the people and is mentally stimulated by their insights. I cannot agree with his description of Judaism as a “religion of practice and not belief”. This being the crux of message cautions me because it doesn’t align with my understanding of Judaism.
Finally, his remark in the beginning, about not understanding the implications of God’s existence (if I’ve heard him right), tells me that he may not be as close to an atheist as he would like to admit.
Richard Oakes on March 28, 2009, 1:09 AM
I’m sorry Jon.
But I don’t understand your point. You accuse me of ignorance of the history of Judaism, which may or may not be the case.
My post was intended to suggest that Ezekiel Emanuel’s comments confirm my suspicion that being Jewish is more about belonging to a group, rather than subscribing to a set of beliefs.
You would have to agree that Judaism is unique among the three great Abrahamic religions in that it doesn’t actively proselytise outside the group. It does not actively seek converts. The fact that an atheist, in this case Mr. Emanuel, is welcome at the synagogue suggests that belief is not a qualifying requirement for inclusion. I am suggesting that Mr. Emanuel qualifies by membership of a race, being Jewish.
If I am wrong, I am happy to be corrected.
RO
Jon Koresko on March 28, 2009, 11:19 AM
I’m not entirely certain what you are referencing when you say the “three great Abrahamic religions”. I would generally agree with your statement that evangelism is not of top importance to the Jewish religion. I did however go to a Synagogue recently and wrote about my experience. This Synagogue was a part of the Conservative Movement as I mentioned above. On there website the is information on how to join them. I compare this to a group like the Masons, that you must be invited into by a member, having commercials on TV.
Also, in the Old Testament there was specific ways the Israelites were to proselytize non-Jews into their assembly. Throughout the Old Testament Israel is a light to their Surrounding Nations. If you look where God places they as they leave Egypt, the promised land is amongst several different people groups. The highway that runs along the Mediterranean is also next to them. In the book of Jonah, this prophet goes to a empire (Assyria) that the Israelites (and him specifically) hate. He task is to preach so that they might repent and God would relent from bringing calamity. I don’t know if you have much interest in the Bible but I only mention this because any part of Judaism (race, religion) affirms this as their Holy Scriptures.
In my first post I tried to guess why Mr. Emanuel goes to Synagogue (friends and interesting conversation). You may be also right, that he was born Jewish. I would imagine that just like other religions though, not all Jews actively participate in Synagogue.
One final thing to give an insight on Christianity. Some have made such an emphasis on evangelism that outsiders might get the impression that its all about getting people saved. Honestly this is also an emphasis of a lot of our Sunday services. It is also one of the negative results of Revivalism (Charles Finney, Billy Sunday, etc.). A current phrase that churches are using and being defined by is, “come as you are”. A paradigm shift that is also occurring is that church is less about a building and more about a people. So church is happening outside the building and often times with people who hold to different beliefs. So I would say in Christianity and in the church, belief is not a qualifying requirement for inclusion. This is happening slow and you will surly find an abundance of churches that will not even try to understand this thought. And so, they get stuck in their old models that are often less-Biblical.
I hope something in my response helped. Sorry if you felt like I was jumping to conclusions.
Jon Koresko on March 28, 2009, 11:22 AM
Sorry I didn’t proof read my previous response. It’s riddled with small spelling and grammatical mistakes. Story of my life :)
Richard Oakes on March 28, 2009, 7:31 PM
Hi there Jon.
You refer to an paradigm shift in the church towards inclusiveness embrassing “people who hold different beliefs”. You then argue that belief is not a qualifying requirement for inclusion. Have you just contradicted yourself?
(Sorry, I am being picky!)
The question I should ask is about the people without belief. As in the case of Mr. Emanuel, if atheists turned up at this new idea of a church, I would be more impressed. I somehow doubt that that would happen.
Cheers,
RO
Richard Oakes on March 28, 2009, 7:34 PM
Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Jon Koresko on April 8, 2009, 8:42 PM
Richard I’m a little confused about what you are referring to when you say that I have contradicted myself. Maybe you can explain.
I personally know quite a few people who have ongoing friendships with atheists. They are engaging their friends in conversation about their beliefs and vice versa. I don’t know if this is happening in a service but what I was trying to explain above (by describing the paradigm shift) is that people are the church .. not the building. Finally, I think you would be comfortable with me saying that everyone has and exhibits beliefs.
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