Big Think

pokój! on January 25, 2009, 12:14 AM

Down the drain? thats too dismal…

Love could be considered a better word. Again, depending on how you define Love.

I believe in G-d because He exists in my life, and I have perceived this. At this point, I could only turn away from Him, or ignore It. And when I do this, the effect it has on my daily life is disastrous.

Matt Pidlysny on January 25, 2009, 12:27 AM

Down the drain could mean alot, pokoj. For someone like you who experiences God in such a way it has repercussions in real life, take the time to note that you keep wanting to go back. While you very well could just up and leave it behind, there’s significance in knowing what can be for the betterment of self development and what is purely false hopes.

I hope the latter part of that last sentence makes sense, I took it from a friend, so to speak :)

sciencesaves on January 25, 2009, 8:55 AM

I’m glad you find peace and serenity in it, hz.

dennis ilic on January 25, 2009, 9:59 AM

Too dismal? I thought that was just a fact we all have to admit.

Life ends with death. No ifs ands or buts about it.

From all the questions of life, or existence, or chaos, comes one final question: to be or not to be?

It is inevitable we go down the drain, that is when we have no choice but to accept the answer: not to be.

I got no problem with it. I choose death no sooner or later than Oct. 29, 2074.

As for God and love, pokoj, I though of this the other day:
God is something to love, when you have nothing else to love. God is something to practice love on until you have the confidence to love yourself, until you have the confidence to love ones around you, until you have the confidence to love everything you have ever known, and then the circuit is complete. You love God as much as God loves you.

Things to practice until I go down the drain.

dennis ilic on January 25, 2009, 10:31 AM

Res, right. Down the drain does mean a lot. There are multiple meaning in that statement. One for everyone. Which one a person picks says a lot about that person.

dennis ilic on January 25, 2009, 10:31 AM

ss, I wish you find peace and serenity in something. I truly do.

sciencesaves on January 26, 2009, 8:18 AM

I found my peace and serenity through enlightenment. Sure, it’s not for everyone, but it is very reassuring to let go of the god notions, and concentrate on the reality that we all live in, as opposed to pseudo-love concepts with the invisible, and assuredly nonexistent, as training for future personal growth.

It seems your version of god has become so abstract and ethereal that you’re almost apologetic about it. Is it because you know better, but can’t reconcile the feelings with what you know to be real and true?

You’re in the company of many.

No offense intended, but why keep modifying the notions to fit reality better?

dennis ilic on January 26, 2009, 10:02 AM

ss, I haven’t changed my definition of God, if you look at my first two ideas on bt, I am still evolving my God. I know God is a nasty word to some, but the real thing is too complex and changing for me to always put in new terms.

I think I am less deluded than you because I do not fool myself that I am enlightened. Or that I know everything there is to know. I have experienced moments in my life where I put my attention into the void, the nothing, or the possibility of the future, and “my prayers were answered”.

If you want scientific backing without evangelical poison, research positive thinking, and visualization.

Having faith is sometimes a necessary component to living.

Just because the universe is indifferent doesn’t mean it won’t fill in the odd request. The more specific a request the less likely it will be filled. (My opinion, from my experiences and observations)

ss, you do not seem like a happy person. That is why I wished you would find peace in serenity in something. I could care less what it is, as long as you found it. You definitely don’t have any peace or serenity on this site, but yet you seem to come back and back. For what? More arguing? More bashing? To fuel your bitter flames?

Why is it so important for you to bash people that believe? Is it the programming of meat machines? Are you too fighting for how you think meat machines should be programmed?

Peace and serenity and may the force be with you. Or the source. Whatever you prefer.

pokój! on January 26, 2009, 10:18 PM

HZ:

“Too dismal? I thought that was just a fact we all have to admit.

Life ends with death. No ifs ands or buts about it.”

Yes… but ‘down the drain’ carries with it the imagery of a sewer at the other end… that’s all I meant. No need to psychoanalyze my response to that extent :)

“I got no problem with it. I choose death no sooner or later than Oct. 29, 2074.”

mmm… that’s pretty exact… you know how you are gonna go?

"As for God and love, pokoj, I though of this the other day:
God is something to love, when you have nothing else to love. God is something to practice love on until you have the confidence to love yourself, until you have the confidence to love ones around you, until you have the confidence to love everything you have ever known, and then the circuit is complete. “

Not for me… G-d IS Love :) or rather, Love begins and ends with G-d. Loving another human is the transmission of this through G-d. In a perfect world. However, with humans we oftentimes imprison the Love G-d sends and try to claim it as our own, and this ends up distorting it and causing most of the problems we face in painful relationships…
”You love God as much as God loves you."
We could never make this claim, G-d’s Love is perfection…
As Kahlil Gibran said, “When you love, say not that G-d is in your heart, but that you are in the heart of G-d.”

“Things to practice until I go down the drain.”

Why end there…

—————-

Res:
“For someone like you who experiences God in such a way it has repercussions in real life, take the time to note that you keep wanting to go back.”

It’s impossible to perceive G-d working in your life, and not allow IT to change you. If you mean wanting to go back to G-d, its more along the lines of reconnecting from that which we’ve long been separate from in levels that we can only imagine, or at least attempt to imagine.

“While you very well could just up and leave it behind, there’s significance in knowing what can be for the betterment of self development and what is purely false hopes.”

It does make sense, though maybe in different contexts… I’m not fully sure what you mean by ‘it’ but if you mean G-d, then I would advise you to consider it more yourself as well when you so often speak of ‘channeling’… don’t take G-d for granted.

Musycks on January 26, 2009, 11:50 PM

god is love but no one can explain how if god (source)is love and only love and everything comes from ‘him’, where did evil come from?

I think having personally interacted with SS for some time now, I can say he’s happy enough HZ, that’s all you can try for… the fact the paradoxical faith/belief paradigm causes him frustration shouldn’t be confused with it.

It frustrates the hell out of me too!!

dennis ilic on January 27, 2009, 9:48 AM

pokoj, “Yes… but ‘down the drain’ carries with it the imagery of a sewer at the other end… that’s all I meant. No need to psychoanalyze my response to that extent:)”,

over?analyze, habit. Horrible habit of mine.
This is the image I see for life. A room of finite dimensions filled with water. When I am born I am dropped from the ceiling like speck of dust. I land on the surface of water and I begin to live when the plug at the base of the room is removed. Moment by moment, drop by drop, the water leaves the room. As the water organizes itself into a vortex my life takes form. I go around and around at the top. I watch the walls and the ceiling as it ‘spins’ around me. I make whatever I can of the walls as they grow larger every moment. At the end, it is I, the last drop that leaves the room. Only to see the light and start all over again. That’s what I saw, I don’t think it’s dismal or even true. It’s just one way of seeing it.

“you know how you are gonna go”?, in my sleep. I’m not saying I know the manner and time of my death as a fact or even a feeling, I’m just making a request with no alternatives. If I die in a different manner or time, I will not be upset:)

“As Kahlil Gibran said”, who is this?
As I say, “When you love, you are God for the moment”.
Peace pokoj, and keep enjoying that Florida weather.

dennis ilic on January 27, 2009, 9:52 AM

muse, evil came from man. It is within us all. No need to look to the sky god for validation. No god required to bring the out the devil in us all.

I’m glad to hear that about ss. ss, I will take muse’s word for it. Just nod if you agree. I know the weather doesn’t help. The days are getting longer, now if they would only get warmer.

pokój! on January 27, 2009, 3:39 PM

HZ:

“This is the image I see for life. A room of finite dimensions filled with water. When I am born I am dropped from the ceiling like speck of dust. I land on the surface of water and I begin to live when the plug at the base of the room is removed. Moment by moment, drop by drop, the water leaves the room. As the water organizes itself into a vortex my life takes form. I go around and around at the top. I watch the walls and the ceiling as it ‘spins’ around me. I make whatever I can of the walls as they grow larger every moment. At the end, it is I, the last drop that leaves the room. Only to see the light and start all over again. That’s what I saw, I don’t think it’s dismal or even true. It’s just one way of seeing it.”
Thats pretty cool… changes the down the drain imagery for sure, but you’d probably need to include that explanation whenever you use the phrase for people like me. :)

So you believe in reincarnation?

""As Kahlil Gibran said", who is this?“
A turn of the century Lebanese poet. Look him up. You’d Love him.

”As I say, “When you love, you are God for the moment”.“

I’d say ‘reconnected to G-d for the moment’… we don’t become G-d.

Mus:

”god is love but no one can explain how if god (source)is love and only love and everything comes from ‘him’, where did evil come from?"

From rebelling against G-d. This created the unholy spirit to counter the Holy Spirit.

Bryan Cridlebaugh on January 27, 2009, 5:27 PM

pokoj, I personally don’t like using the word reincarnation. I prefer eternal life.

hz, You should know that I like the way you draw pictures with words. Before anyone had commented on this thread, I wanted to write “what a trip.”

muse, “god is love but no one can explain how if god (source)is love and only love and everything comes from ‘him’, where did evil come from?” Did you just say “god is love?” There were no quotes! Ha! (tauntingly) musycks said god is love, musycks said god is love:-P
I’ve tried to explain the way I feel about this question before. I think that everything is made of love. The evil is a part of nature. This nature is as real as it gets. What better thing to do with time than explore, discover, and live on a planet? We are here to live what it is like to go through all the steps. All the way to understanding how we exist. I don’t think we’re imperfect, just young in terms of discovering and understanding ourselves. We are evolving…into what?

There i go thinking out loud again.

Musycks on January 27, 2009, 6:23 PM

Scene… a Boys School.
Mr Musycks a Teacher enters, the boys settle.

M. Right you lot, roll call… pokoj?
P. Here sir.
M. Healing Zero?
HZ. Define here?
M. Bryan Wallace Cridlebaugh?
BC. I love you sir.

M. Right, todays lesson, ‘where did evil come from’? Bryan!.. pay attention lad and stop picking through pokoj’s hair and eating the stuff!
… the problem is, if god is only love, and once there was only god, then anything he created could only have been ‘of’ love…
now given he created everything, why is everything not ‘love’ and nothing else?

BC. That’s lovely sir.
HZ. Define love?
P. What does C S Lewis think?

M. C’mon boys… you’re all bright lads..
Does evil exist?

P. Yes, anyone that doesn’t cuddle up to Jesus creates evil.. but I still love them.

BC. So do I…

HZ. define evil?

M. Pay attention pokoj.. if god is only love he can only create love.. if something else created evil, like man moving away from god, then god didn’t create everything, or simply god can’t be god.

BC. More love please.

HZ. Look this is all well and good, but how does it include drains and a water vortex?

P. well that would cause a ripple…

BC. I love ripples… ripples of love…

Schoolroom disolves into chaos, boys start running wild, teacher has quizzical look on his face.

M. (aside)those crazy kids… ya gotta love ‘em anyway..

He writes on the blackboard.

M. alright boys, when you’ve finished conjugate the verb ‘to love’.. I’m off to tea with science master Herbie, he’s discovered nothing and it’s quite something.

Teacher exits, slipping on banana peel left by BC.

pokój! on January 27, 2009, 11:16 PM

Hehehe… that was good, mus… let me try…

“… the problem is, if god is only love, and once there was only god, then anything he created could only have been ‘of’ love…
now given he created everything, why is everything not ‘love’ and nothing else?”

M:Okay pokoj, lets try this again. Why are you changing the definition of love?
BC: You can’t change love. Or maybe you can’t not change love. Or maybe love can’t not change you. Or maybe its all of it.
P: G-d is Love, but I’ve also said many times G-d is not only defined by Love.
M: So now god isn’t love? You xtians are all flippy-floppy with no backbone
P: No, thats not what I said… C.S.Lewis would say ‘Nonsense is still nonsense even when we speak it of God." It is a part of Him. But the key parts of the Bible that say G-d is Love are:
1 John 4:7-18
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love…
M: pokoj, you know how I hate your references to that overblown mishmash of archaic drivel.
P: well, sir, you entered into this discussion with us, so unfortunately you will have to deal with it for the sake of correspondence… this passage is essential in understanding my belief on this topic. Of course this passage is only scratching the surface of what we can define Love as, so there will be more scripture if you keep pressing further…
BC:I Love Love. It makes me even warmer and fuzzier than my furry coat of hair.
HZ:This painting of peat moss covered in abalone shells is representative of my love for you, Bryan.
M: Well then, pokoj, you are still separating god and love.
P: I guess it pertains to the Holy Spirit. This aspect of G-d’s Love is so powerful it has woven its way through all the layers of existence… we are not saying G-d is Love so much as saying Love is G-d. But I don’t really know how to say why that is different. Baptism isn’t about being covered with water, its about rising up out of the water and breathing freely and clearly G-d’s Love of the universe.

Love is G-d’s always walking with you, like in Exodus, where the hearts of Israel were surrounded by the flowing of His Love, though they didn’t really understand then, Love steered them in the only direction they could have gone. Love is G-d when you accept Him into your heart, and you feel the well inside you filling up with IT, like when the Apostles first started following Jesus. Love is G-d when you have allowed Him to fill you to the point of overflowing, so that the Love spills all around you touching everything you meet, like the Acts of the Apostles, or the Acts of the Holy Spirit.

M: Oh yes, god’s love really guided the israelites well, like when they killed babies and goats, and stoned people who pissed him off.
P:Well they weren’t able to understand G-d and Love in our capacity, we can’t hold G-d accountable for our need to personify Him… He had to bring humanity to a place where we could, once again, learn to Love Love.
M:That’s your explanation?!
P: No, but now I’ve lost my train of though, so just tack it up until I learn more from G-d.
M: So how can you even define evil as something separate from god if god created everything?
P: In the free will system, or the Love system, there is no need for there to be any being existing in any extension of G-d if not for there ability to choose to Love him. He created us with the capacity to do so, because if not we wouldn’t really be Loving Him, we’d only be robots. Lucifer choosing not to Love G-d created evil… or rather, that which is apart from G-d, and that which works to separate everything it can from His Love. If G-d hadn’t given Lucifer the ability to deny Him, there would be no reason to create at all.
M: Can’t you see how this is a paradox?
P: No, because I can’t see the end.
M: Two hands clap and there is a sound. What is the sound of one hand?
P: What?
M: exactly

M. C’mon boys… you’re all bright lads..
Does evil exist?

P. Yes, it is the forsaking of G-d. It is denying that communion with Him is the most basic need anything in existence has. Anyone that doesn’t know, or doesn’t allow, Jesus in their hearts paves the way for evil.. but I still love them. Though G-d says to hate evil.
M: Love can’t command things to hate.
P: Well I’m not sure what the Greek word that was translated to hate was. That’s why you have to study the Bible to get the full meaning out of it.



M. Pay attention pokoj.. if god is only love he can only create love.. if something else created evil, like man moving away from god, then god didn’t create everything, or simply god can’t be god.
P:Well that’s why I never said G-d was only Love. Love is G-d, but is not limited to. It’s not a defining word, It’s a characteristic.
M: You can’t change definitions of words to suit your own taste
P:I can’t say anymore right now, that kind of drained me… I’m gonna eat some pizza.
BC: I love pizza. Does pizza love me?
HZ: My life is like the single shred of mozzarella before the pizza goes in the oven. It gets melted down to join the rest of existence and become as delicious as that pizza is capable of becoming. until god eats it.
P: Sacred poo?
M: thats all it is

Shalom.

sciencesaves on January 28, 2009, 7:40 AM

hz, I know I come across as closed-minded when discussing religious concepts, but I sure am a lot happier than I was on the fence. I don’t think anyone can be happy sitting the fence, not making a decision about what’s right for them, as an individual.

That’s a big-ass fence!

Religious concepts have become so tired and stale, that it seems more meaningful to follow the golden rule, and take responsibility for your own actions, as opposed to thinking there’s some unverifiable source affecting outcomes, based upon wishful “perception”.

As hard as I am on those who profess belief, I do respect the obvious intelligence of folks such as yourself, pokoj, and some others. I guess I don’t understand how bright, well-rounded people can continue to get hung up on god notions to varying degrees.

I communicate best with the written word, and I find real substance on here from time to time. Perhaps my heavy-handed commentary reflects how “done” I am with any primitive “conclusions”

Modify it all you want, there’s not a shred of evidence beyond hearsay, or unverifiable claims, even after 2000 years of “waiting”.

How long should humans continue to acknowledge fantasy as somehow real?

Bryan Cridlebaugh on January 28, 2009, 11:30 AM

I love banana pizza.

HerbieP on January 28, 2009, 12:17 PM

Are you coming for that cup of tea Musycks? No one turned up for the science class.

Musycks on January 28, 2009, 6:01 PM

pokoj…. A minus… it would be a perfect assignment except for the continual mentions of god in it! I gave you marks for the love quotient, which was excellent.

I forgot to point out during the lesson that Science saves was in the room… he was just up the back feeling up the girls who were visiting from the neighbouring all-girls school, and showing them pictures of his hot rod!

Herbie… I’m comin’ for the tea, but it had better be strong!

Musycks on January 28, 2009, 6:04 PM

I forgot too… and this thread made me remember.. I read a quote on the weekend by someone I forget but it said..
‘the lack of humour in the bible is one of the singular tragedies in all of mankind’

or similar.

I second that emotion.

dennis ilic on January 28, 2009, 9:11 PM

Funny.
But in all seriousness,
class dismissed.

dennis ilic on January 28, 2009, 9:48 PM

God is evolving.
God is expanding.
God is living.
God is growing.
God is changing.

Love is God. Good point pokoj. Love is a part of God. As is every thought in my head. Your head. Muse’s head, Herbie’s head, Brian’s head, ss’s head, Res’s head, and everything that ever was and ever will be.

As long as there is evil in the heart’s of Man, there is evil in God.

God created himself and eventually after the passage of sometime we emerged. Now we can create. We can even create god.

All of us are the eyes, ears, and consciousness of god. And more importantly we are representatives of god. Other things in existences see, hear, and know of us, and they are collecting our words and actions and passing them onto god. God is what everything has done, is doing, and will do.

pokoj, I understand what you meant by not being able to be god, but try to connect with god. I don’t think there is any trying involved. I think we are connected to god in the way I mentioned above.

ss, I’m glad you are happier than you were before. I hope you continue to experience more joy in your life.

I wish that for everyone. If everyone was happier and less afraid… I think god would laugh so hard he’d shit out another universe.

Now, where’s that tea?

dennis ilic on January 28, 2009, 9:53 PM

pokoj, I forgot. I do believe in reincarnation, but not in the traditional manner.
I think I believe in reincarnation the way Bryan does. An eternal life. The life that I am using, was something else before me, and will be something else after me. I have no clue what it was before me and I have no clue what it will be after me. All I know is I wasn’t me before me and I won’t be me after me. This is the only chance Dennis G. Ilic gets.
Thank you,
come again.

Musycks on January 29, 2009, 12:36 AM

very Bokonian laddie, but I can just see the Science masters head spinning?!!
‘god created himself’… by what authority do you assert that claim he’d ask….
I of course would not be so churlish!

As if.

and so it goes….

Musycks on January 29, 2009, 12:38 AM

two things…
‘laugh so hard he’d shit another universe’ is easily one of the best things ever written on this site!!

and the reply code for this was …pudumm

down under and out.