Big Think

dennis ilic on May 30, 2008, 1:41 PM

What do you believe?

Could you decrease your harmful beliefs and increase your beneficial beliefs?

sciencesaves on May 30, 2008, 2:04 PM

What do you classify as a harmful belief, hz?

HerbieP on May 30, 2008, 3:07 PM

I have no beliefs harmful or otherwise.

dennis ilic on May 30, 2008, 3:18 PM

ss, one that is degrading or self retarding. Examples: I believe women can’t drive or do taxes, black men are more likely to steal my money and rape my wife, jews don’t share with non-jewish persons. I believe I am not smart enough, I believe that I am ugly, I believe Xtians are idiots, I believe science is ruining religion, etc. Those kind of beliefs.

Beliefs that warp reality into seeing things as they relate to you more than how they relate to everything else around you.

HP, I don’t believe you.

sciencesaves on May 30, 2008, 3:44 PM

some sounds more like prejudice from experience. I’ll think on that one.

Good idea, hz.

Denys Artasevych on May 30, 2008, 3:58 PM

I second HP, no beliefs just assumptions.

dennis ilic on May 30, 2008, 5:42 PM

44, what is the difference between assumptions and beliefs?

dennis ilic on May 30, 2008, 5:43 PM

ss, is prejudice a warpped reality caused by a particular belief?

Denys Artasevych on May 30, 2008, 6:13 PM

Good question hz. Here is how i define them.

Belief: something a person thinks (like a belief in gravity) or feels (like a belief in a soul) to be objectivelly true, even though there is a lack of absolute proof.

Assumption: an concept one takes to be true for a certain purpouse.(i assume this cup will not disintegrate in order to have a drink) (i asume the physical reality is true in order to discuss politics). But there no assertion of it actually being true.

Basically the premise for an assumption is “i have no idea if its true, but i assume in order to talk about this” vs belief “i think, or i feel it is true” vs knowledge, or conviction (or rather a claim of knowledge) “i am absolutley certain that this is true”

dennis ilic on May 30, 2008, 6:25 PM

44, I thought belief was a subjective idea, not an objective truth.

I think is weaker than I know.
I believe is also weaker than I know, but involves more feeling than thinking.

I thought we were all under the assumption that none of ‘this’ was actually true, and that is why we were allowed to ‘discuss’ everything.

Denys Artasevych on May 30, 2008, 6:41 PM

Belief is a linguistic description, the aditude is of course subjective.

dennis ilic on May 30, 2008, 8:01 PM

As far as this thread was concerned I was thinking of belief in a dictionary sense: as a) firm opinion, or acceptance, b) not nessecarly, but not excluding, a religious conviction, and c) trust or confidence in…

Which would include a belief in science or even a belief in logic.

sciencesaves on May 30, 2008, 9:21 PM

Humanism would be the closest I would get to a belief, if that answers the question. As far as the prejudices go, I don’t like stupid people.

Musycks on May 30, 2008, 10:26 PM

ss nails it… me too. (he says eloquently, typing the keys slowly with one finger)
well they are upside down over here!

Denys Artasevych on May 30, 2008, 10:43 PM

Science requires belief true.

Logic does not, logic stand on the same level as existance.

“i think therefore something is” reuires logic to be deduced.
And logic in turn requires existance.

So to deny logic is to deny existance, and logic will not alow us to do that.

So there is no “strong opinion” or "belief required here. It is self aparant.

dennis ilic on May 30, 2008, 11:24 PM

ss, that answers the question. You have a belief. Is it beneficial to you and everything around you?
Do you consider anyone on big think to be stupid?

musycks, do you believe you are the one that is upside down?

44, I believe you even doubt existance. And could prove it logically.

Denys Artasevych on May 30, 2008, 11:34 PM

I cant because to deny existance is to deny logic. So if i was able to logically deny existance, that would create a paradox. Which in turn would not be logical.

What does stupid implly anyway? An IQ below 100? Stupidity is a subjective concept, we usually refer to people as stupid is we find in them charactaristic we dislilke. Thus it is basically saying i dislike the people i dislike.

dennis ilic on May 31, 2008, 1:27 AM

Yes I dislike the people I dislike as well. But that is a problem I have created with my own belief. My prejudice. My paradigm.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Musycks on May 31, 2008, 3:52 AM

hz Gump.. well said. Some of the nicest people I know could be classified as stupid by some measure. I read some of the posts here and feel completely stupid! (pokoj and Jesse stop smirking down the back!)..

and I may very well be the only upside down one here.. but at least I’m 14 hours in the future!

HerbieP on May 31, 2008, 4:38 AM

Science does not require belief Skeptic any more than logic does. Accepting certain axioms, such as the consistency and accuracy of sense perceptions, scince just progresses by hypothesis and theory, no belief required. Initial axioms may be wrong, theory may be proved wrong. True science does not assert anything, it is merely a method and hence requires no belief. This is a misconception of non-scientists.

HerbieP on May 31, 2008, 5:29 AM

Just to be clear, I do not have believe that there is a real world in order to conduct experiments in it.

sciencesaves on May 31, 2008, 10:08 AM

hz, My definition of stupid would be someone who just does not care at all about anything other than themselves and their little world, and ignores and disrespects the intelligence of others. I probably should have used the word “ignorant”.

Only one on the bigT that comes to mind, it would be thatguy.

I really respect the intelligence of the people posting on here, even though I get short at times. I’m no brainbank, I’m better with things mechanical than with the deep and deeper philosophies, but I think I can get a grasp on the premises, usually.

This is an interesting path, hz, good to get down to the basics sometimes.

dennis ilic on May 31, 2008, 2:04 PM

musycks, I agree on all accounts, except for you being the only upside downer. You are a man of the future. 14 hours ahead of me everyday, and 14 years ahead of me every year.

HP, you don’t have to believe in anything, but I think it is impossible to be without a belief. You belief that scientific methods are the best way of discerning reality and truth. That seems to be a paradigm belief that will warp all your perception, and tune your reception, to see, and receive, all information through that microscope. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with that, I’m just saying that is a belief. That is a firm opinion you have. That is something you put your trust in. Scientific methods, and science in general, is the lasted version of ‘place your trust in us’.

ss, I would almost say you dislike people that are selfish, not necessarily ignorant. People that have chosen, sometimes by default, to separate themselves from the people around them and go it alone. People, or living things in general, that do not share, are in a sense ‘evil’. It’s probably a necessity in life, but not one I would chose to encourage.
I believe in sharing. (core belief of mine)

Denys Artasevych on May 31, 2008, 2:31 PM

You are corect Herbie, exuse my phrasing. Science does not require belief. Taking any scientific theory as the truth does.

I think that works better.

HZ
Herbie never said that science is the best way to discover the truth. He said its the best way to examine, and experiment in the physical world. But that that physical world may be entirelly an illusion.

dennis ilic on May 31, 2008, 2:50 PM

44, “[science is] the best way to examine, and experiment in the physical world. But that that physical world may be entirelly an illusion”.
Is that a belief? Would that be an incorrect statement, HP?
Is that your belief, 44? I would say it is, and that paradigm shapes the way you see everything. Nothing wrong with that, I’m just testing a hypothesis.
(belief ‘warps’ reality) Maybe warps is not the right word. Belief…shapes…molds…reality.

HerbieP on May 31, 2008, 3:37 PM

As usual HZ – what skeptic says, he’s usually paying attention.

HerbieP on May 31, 2008, 3:45 PM

Well let me phrase it like this, science will do until something better comes along. I personally haven’t found anything as useful for manipulating the physical world. Let me know if there is an alternative.

dennis ilic on May 31, 2008, 4:56 PM

HP, understood. Personally, I do not try to manipulate the physical world anymore. From my experience, I find it better to participate in the physical world rathter than try tp manipulate it.

The more I control myself, the less I will control those around me. (another core belief of mine)

HerbieP on May 31, 2008, 5:31 PM

Sorry no core beliefs here.

Denys Artasevych on May 31, 2008, 5:50 PM

Do i belive that objective truth eludes us, yes i guess. But again i would not call that a belief, rather the inevitable ourcome of logical analisis. Thus it is in a way a truth. There has been argument weather logic is also derived from sensual experience. And we have not come to a conclussion on that, so you can say i belive logic is above experience and the senses.

The interesting thing is that we use logic to examine that claim. Therefore i think that is in itself proof that logic is an objectie truth.

dennis ilic on May 31, 2008, 6:48 PM

HP, you do not have to apologize to me for not having any core beliefs. Although, I still don’t believe you.

44, how does your belief, that logic is above experience and the senses, affect your reality?

Denys Artasevych on May 31, 2008, 11:23 PM

Alright mates, i know we all love talking religion. but lets talk politics, check out TheSnoo’s idea “Can a country in the western world support an anarcho-communist government?” and let us know wthat kind of a political system you see as ideal.

HerbieP on June 1, 2008, 3:23 AM

HZ Well I can’t really say that I do believe me can I? But at least there is something that you don’t believe (with no grounds what so ever).

dennis ilic on June 1, 2008, 10:45 AM

HP, I think it is impossible to be human without a belief.
Why can’t you say I believe myself?
Or, I believe I exist?
Or even, I believe nothing is real, therefore everything is permitted.

Believe it or not, everyone believes in something, whether it is acknowledged or not, and that does set up the paradigm of reality.

I’m basically saying be aware of your beliefs, because they do shape the reality you exist in. And we must definitely may only have one reality to exist in.

HerbieP on June 2, 2008, 4:05 AM

HZ I don’t know what ‘I beleive myself’ means so I can’t say it with any conviction.

I don’t ‘believe that I exist’. I have good reason to assume that I exist, but what ‘I’ am and what ‘existence’ exactly comprises I’m not sure. There is no belief involved. As far as I am aware I do not believe anything in the sense that Jeff for example (I only pick him because unlike many he is willing to share his beliefs openly)seems to believe almost everything. I do not believe in science (it just seems to work), I do not believe in god. Nope as far as can tell I don’t believe in anything. Why is that so hard for you to accept? For a long time I didn’t think that anyone really believed anything either. However after many exchanges with all kinds of believers I am now preety sure that I was wrong about that. This is why I am so fascinated by other people’s beliefs. they just make no sense to me.

dennis ilic on June 2, 2008, 10:59 AM

HP, thank you for your reply and conviction. I understand and accept your statement. I will push no farther on the subject.

Love and Peace my English brother.

Jesse Akers on June 3, 2008, 7:09 PM

surrond yourself with beauty, when things are seemingly ugly look for the sublte beauty in that too, eat, drink, and be merry, allow joy to accompany you all the days of your life that God* has given you…

…everything may appear finite and corrupt but when the doors of perception are cleansed everything will appear as it truly is, infinite and holy

dennis ilic on June 3, 2008, 11:05 PM

Jesse, sounds like a toast at wedding. True though. I try to tune myself to receive beauty in all things.

Mike Robb on July 19, 2008, 10:27 AM

Of course belief will warp reality. Hence there is no one truth. Everyone has their own belief paradigm that warps reality to their own version of reality. These beliefs prevent a soul from seeing the Truth- that truth is that there is no truth.
He who knows the truth knows that this truth cannot be told