David Gallo
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David Gallo commented on The Name of My Religion on October 8, 2009, 10:27 PM
Denys, a few things. I don't think it's a coincidence. The only thing I'm trying to say here is that it can't be random. It can't be chaos. There is order in the universe. Something had to cause the order. Does that mean you think order comes from nowhere? The universe just is...has it always been? The fact that we are here means that somehow we got here. There is a cause. Either time started at some point, or time has been going on forever. Both explinations of our origins don't make sense. Yet we find ourselves here. Something got us to the point we find ourselves in. What that reason is I don't know. Was there a first cause?
David Gallo commented on The Name of My Religion on October 8, 2009, 1:17 PM
Hey Herb, thanks. When I say coincidence I mean, even in THIS ordered universe the chances of us being here IS highly unlikely. And yet we remain. The chances of the earth being a certain distance from a star with the composition to sustain life and then have it evolve to the point of conciousness is remote to say the least. Which I why I say it can't be coincidence. There has to be a reason for us being here. The problem is that all of the reasons don't make sense. Either this just started. Or. It's been here forever. Neither makes sense.
David Gallo commented on The Name of My Religion on October 8, 2009, 3:22 AM
Denys thanks for the input. First. Yes perfect as in ordered. And I do understand that it is only our indivudual reality that we can take from, but even in a different and possibly more chaotic universe, there would still be underlying priciples allowing for conciousness. There are an infinite number of possible situations, but we do find ourselves in this particular one. But what's the problem with not being sure? I don't want to stop trying to uncover truth. But can truth/absolute certainty, be obtained?
David Gallo commented on The Name of My Religion on October 8, 2009, 2:08 AM
I agree...but my question then is...if we are unable to separate religious ideals from conversations unable to use the facts, science and/or sociology, to come up with a reasonable conclusion to a given problem, then how do we converse (and make progress with) those with dogmatic tendencies?
David Gallo commented on The Name of My Religion on October 9, 2009, 7:26 PM
Alright guys, I enjoy an uphill battle... Denys, "I have little ability to speculate on origins or lack there of of the universe. because i exist within the universe the conception of anything outside of it is beyond my perception thus any assumption i make will have no meanining." I can't agree more. In fact, I can't comment on anything outside of my consciousness. We can't even prove that the physical world exists with absolute certainty. But what I do assert here is. I (something that once did not exist) currently exist. What was I before I existed. Don't know. Did I not exist prior to my consciousness. What is consciousness? If I can't even understand what I am, how can I explain where I came from? All I know is I arrived. I'm here. Thinking in a way that is inseperable from the order that I find myself a part of. "As Herbie pointed out beginning is a concept that is only relevant within the realm of time, if the universe is to have a beginning of any kind time must exist outside the time-space we experience which is a paradox." Seems pretty relevant to me. I'm in time. If the universe were to have a begining it would be paradoxical. So then the universe has been here forever? Thats a paradox too. Yet we are here. I'm a fan of string theory and multiple dimensions. But as far as proof, good luck. "Chaos is actually a state between perfect order and absolute randomness much like the universe we experience. So we exist in what you call chaos. Yes there is a particular order in the universe, but there is nothing that says we need a conscious intelligence to create what we experience as order. It may be inevitable. In fact intelligence requires matter and order so for such a thing to exist outside of and to create these very concepts is nonsensical. If there is something that you call a prime cause calling it intelligent or sentient in any way is absurd." I didn't say a conscious being created us. I said that there is order in the universe. This order requires a source. It may be inevitable. But would that require everything to be inevitable? And does that mean that things are inevitable just because they exist? A begining itself is absurd, let alone someone with a magic wand so to speak. All that I can say is... I am here. Somehow I got here. Tim, "I agree that the big-bang theory is correct. But how matter or energy appeared in emptyness regardless of time or no time is still a cause yet to be explained." I assume Denys would say that the big bang theory creates a paradox. I'd have to agree, even though I think it's probably right. If the big band theory happened. Then where'd the (ordered) materials come from. And if the universe is expanding, then into WHAT? And if there is other intelligence out there (and I'd say there probably is) isn't that more proof for some kind of cause for this intelligence? "I can't imagine what force would cause the expansion of the universe to speed up. The gravitational forces are all different levels in relation to objects and velocity of orbits etc. At some instances no gravity at all." There ARE these embedded constants such as laws of physics, gravity etc. Don't they have to have some kind of explanation? Does lack of explanation mean that there isn't one? Herbie, Alright herb lets drag it out of the forth dimension. Let's talk about the infinite number of infinite possible realities. Even then you can only extrapolate out so far. There has to be an end (or a beginning) somewhere. There can't be an actual infinite... Also, doesn't there have to be some kind of causality? "Perhaps it is the only possible state of being. We cannot say that it is ordered relative to anything because we know nothing else. Order is just a word we use to describe things around us. We only know that there is such a thing as order because we also see things that we regard as disordered. we can say nothing about absolute order." It could be the only possible state of being. If that is the case, aren't you just saying it is because it is? Order is just a word we use to describe things around us but it doesn't mean it isn't there. Which means it has some kind of explanation. Granted we may have no ability to compare our experience to any other but does that mean that it shouldn't have an explanation. Even if everyone we come up with is paradoxical?