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Hrsi Ali now works for the American Enterprise Institute, an organization that promotes a biased xenophobic and ultraconservative agenda. And they don't refrain from being dishonest to promote the us-versus-them scenario which makes them a necessary tool to trigger-happy governments.
For instance, take her comment that Ahmedinejad would use nuclear weapons. He, and scholars in their conservative government have repeatedly stated that the use of such weapons were not only not in Iran's interest, but Islamically unacceptable. Iran's repeatedly denied interests in developing nuclear weapons, and no doubt if there were to test them, they'd see themselves excluded from the international community and subjected to economic pressures.
Should the US err on the side of caution, and should the international community keep a stern eye on Iran's nuclear activities? You bet. But Hirsi Ali is a liar, and what she and her employer does is a dangerous and deliberate ploy to promote hostility in an already fragile environment.
Nuclear weapons should be categorically banned, for all nations. Who's to say who would do a better job deciding an entire city or town or nation should be reduced to radioactive dust? Given America's voted to power for a clueless religious fanatic of a president, TWICE, should America be trusted as being capable of maintaining and wisely using nuclear weapons? Abolish nukes altogether. There's nothing that needs achieving that can't be done with conventional arms.
At the end, she lost me with the broad rejection of Islam, but she has dealt with it more directly. Not to mention, I am a man.
Otherwise, I was very illuminated by her insights and opinions on the world of the Middle East.
She admires America for its willingness to make 'terrible' decisions to go to war, and chides Europe for not doing so. She describes that instinct in America as being courageous. And yet, she finds it difficult to name countries that we should be bombing. She speaks of Saudi Arabia, but doesn't connect the dots, she leaves that to us. She speaks of Iran even more, but then too, falls short of connecting the dots.
Why? Because if she did openly speak of invading and bombing Iran, the evidence in rebuttal of her points would flow forward. Ahmedinejad has very limited influence in Iran. The man gets booed by young Iranians in public gatherings. He's seen as an imbecile even by the Clerics, much as Bush is seen as one by some in America.
She repeatedly states that Islam as a whole is the enemy, then goes on to say "I mean Islam, not all Muslims". What is the definition of a Muslim? One who believes in Islam. If a Muslim can practice Islam, and his understanding of Islam leaves him no reason to see Americans or Jews or whatever, as a threat, who is Hirsi Ali to say a moderate form of Islam doesn't exist? The evidence that moderate Islam DOES exist is the many millions of Muslims who are productive and cordial and friendly, amongst themselves and to the West.
Her admiration of America is misguided. Those who support her ultra-radical position on Islam and Muslims are mostly from the extreme right...It's that same part of America that once vehemently opposed black Americans using the same restaurants and swimming pools as the white Americans. The Strom Thurmonds and John Deadys of America.
We need people who emphasize the commonalities of peoples. People who build bridges and communicate as equals. There are such people amongst "westerners" and "Muslims" alike. Heck, many Muslims ARE westerners. What we need less of is people like Ayaan who merely talks down to people, instructs them on fixing themselves yet doesn't give a moment to consider the ills of the people she stands for.
Nothing is easy about the challenges that face Muslims all over the world, and non-Muslims trying to understand them in a post 911 fear-and-myth-obsessed culture. I appreciate the way Hirsi Ali showed the contradictions in the situation, while at the same time being brave enough to offer her own (perhaps controversial to some) opinions on what should be done.
Are you sure you are not Neville Chamberlain? Allow me to quote you:
"We need people who emphasize the commonalities of peoples. People who build bridges and communicate as equals"
Lets think about this, Who was it that:
Flew planes into the occupied twin towers on 9-11 Killing some 3000 people?
Blew up several Subway trains in England on 7/7 killing 52 and injuring 700?
Blew up commuter trains in Spain on 11 Mar killing 191?
Who is it that is launching suicide bombing daily against civilians in Iraq?
(read a few accounts: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/IraqBodyCount2006.htm)
http://www.alalam.ir/english/en-NewsPage.asp?newsid=041030120080307152448
Who is it that is using civilians, women and children as human shields:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism- Obstacle to Peace/Hamas war against Israel/Hamas exploitation of civilians as human shields - Photographic evidence.htm?
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58837
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020217.php
http://www.btselem.org/english/Inter_Palestinian_Violations/Index.asp
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=57867
Who is it that is mindlessly firing rockets into civilian areas of Israel?
Who is it that is always calling for the death of anyone who speaks against Islam?
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL15398953
http://www.nisnews.nl/public/280208_5.htm
When was the last time a Christian mob abducted and murdered a muslim cleric:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080313/wl_afp/iraqunrestreligionkidnap_080313124156;_ylt=ApJ4ciJvwbdpmM1oVOEHdyFX6GMA
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=12043
What religion teaches their children that it is better to die than to live? (lets not forget honor kilings of their OWN children either)
http://www.crosswalk.com/news/11570602/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3517726,00.html
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23353008-1702,00.html
http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=A6A9577D-95EA-49F6-A613-EFC86B36B48B
http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2008/02/denmark-immigrant-children-learn-to.html
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125392
Lets review a little bit about the beloved "Religion of peace," shall we?
From the qu'ran:
Sura (8:55) - Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve
Sura (48:29) - Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves
Sura (9:30) - And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah... Allah (Himself) fights against them. How perverse are they!
Sura (8:12) - I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them
Sura (9:123) - O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness
Sura (5:33) - The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a. . .
The Quran contains 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers, and kill the infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.
(source: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm)
How dare you to have the audacity to insinuate that the problem is the "intolerant" Christians, Americans, English whomever. . .The problem is not these groups of people. They have been giving, honorable , charitable and tolerant. While the Mohammedans are ANYTHING BUT.
If you believe we can just sit down, have a chat and all will be well. The world will not be singing Cumbayah, or "I'd like to buy the world a coke."
The problem is that islam teaches:
It is the ONLY religion of God (their allah)
All who do not follow Islam are subhuman and do not deserve to live, and muslims should have contempt for them.
To make war on, and kill anyone who is an unbeliever.
That allah turned some Jews into swine and apes. . . (they REALLY believe that crap)
It is forbidden to become friends with Jews and Christians.
I suspect you already know all this.
You mention that the United States and Israel have had nuclear weapons for some time. How many times have they used them on those "innocent" Mohammadan countries? Are you really naive enough to believe that Ahmedinejad would hesitate to use nuclear weapons against Israel, the United States or anyone else? This fool believe that he is going to bring about the return of the 13th Imam and the end times. He, like you, is not playing with a full deck and really needs to reassess reality.
I would suggest to OmarS that moderatism exists where criticism is allowed.
We have 500 years of history in the West of struggling to break free for our religious masters: criticism of the Christian faith is now commonplace and widespread (without fear of censure or punishment or death).
OmarS: show us the Islamic critics. Where are they? Who are they? Where are their voices?
Hirsi Ali is a rare Muslim voice criticizing her faith that is widely recognized in the west. And like Salman Rushdie , her criticisms have unleashed waves of hatred and death threats from Islam, and waves of political correctness from the liberal far-left who preach appeasement, rather than free speech and criticism.
And what about COERCIVE ISLAM? Where does Islam get off threatening death to those of other faiths that fail to follow its tenants? Insisting that western cartoonists must adhere to Islam and not publish images of Mohammad; and ABSOLUTELY do not publish criticism of Islam or Mohammad. Where are the moderate Muslims? Cowering in fear in their TV rooms?
-There is NO MODERATE ISLAM until moderates are allowed to self-criticize their faith.
-There is NO MODERATE ISLAM until Islam accepts criticism.
Hirsi Ali speaks about the birth of MODERATE Islam. Boil water.
OmarS,
Miso, first off, Mohammedan is not a word. The word you are looking for is %u201CMuslim%u201D. Your blinding ignorance only begins there.
To quote you:
%u201CLets think about this, Who was it that:
Flew planes into the occupied twin towers on 9-11 Killing some 3000 people?
Blew up several Subway trains in England on 7/7 killing 52 and injuring 700?
Blew up commuter trains in Spain on 11 Mar killing 191?
Who is it that is launching suicide bombing daily against civilians in Iraq? %u201C
Amongst the 1.5 billion Muslims, what proportion engaged in any of these acts? And I could turn the question around. Which country needlessly invaded Iraq, for no other reason than that the people of that country were of the same race as the people who actually committed 9-11? Let%u2019s not pretend the word %u201Csandnigger%u201D isn%u2019t used to describe Muslims, and that this war against them wasn%u2019t prmoted by the Christian right wing in the US.
Not to suggest the acts of terrorism were justified, but consider what motivated those who engaged in the terrorist acts of 9-11. America%u2019s continued presence and interference in the Middle East. It%u2019s endorsement via supply of arms of dictatorial regimes that would otherwise be overthrown by the people. How many armed conflicts did the US make itself party to? From overthrow of Musaddeq who was democratically elected, in favor of the tyrannical Shah, the support of Pakistan%u2019s genocide in Bengal. This blanket accusation that Muslims hate %u201Cfreedom%u201D as Bush would put it, is your petty pretext to avoid understanding that America%u2019s genuinely done things that would earn the hatred of any community that fell victim to its partisan support. That the American people, and their government endorsed a war that%u2019s left a nation in disaster with hundreds of thousands dead, will give people of that region reason to hate America for decades to come. And people like you will go on pretending that it all has to do with theology.
Who is it that is mindlessly firing rockets into civilian areas of Israel?
And there%u2019s nothing mindless about Palestinians firing rockets at Israeli settlers who use some old fictional scripture to state claim to a land they have never been a part of. The Israelis, many of whom came from experiencing the horrors of Nazism, have in turn become Nazis themselves. What was it a Jewish Rabbi said..%u201DOne million Arabs are not worth one Jewish fingernail%u201D. Or as Rabbi Moshe Levinger said on Baruch Goldstein%u2019s massacre of Palestinians: %u201C
"I am sorry for the 29 Palestinians murdered by Goldstein in the same way that I would be sorry for the killing of 29 flies."%u201D
Zionism argues that Jews have a right to build settlements on land where Palestinians live, uprooting them and forcing them to lives like dogs in a guarded kennel, perpetually humiliated and subject to killings, robbed of their homes. Even their water is diverted away to them to serve Jewish immigrants from Brooklyn. If you were a Palestinian, you%u2019d be in support of lobbing rockets at those settlements, regardless of your faith. Indeed, many members of the PLO who supported attacking the Zionists weren%u2019t Muslim at all. Hannan Ashwari is Christian, as was George Habbash.
You said:
%u201CWho is it that is always calling for the death of anyone who speaks against Islam?%u201D
Answer: Extremists, not moderate Muslims.
When was the last time a Christian mob abducted and murdered a muslim cleric
Thankfully none, largely because we%u2019d kick your ass if you tried. The JDL tried to bomb Mosques in the US, but they failed. The mastermind of that plot, Irv Rubin got caught, sent to jail, where he committed suicide. Can%u2019t give the guy partial credit for failing.
What religion teaches their children that it is better to die than to live? (lets not forget honor kilings of their OWN children either)
No religion teaches that. The concept of martyrdom exists in many religions, nations and cultures, but Islam doesn%u2019t permit children to be participants of warfare. Most Muslims find what Hamas and other terrorist groups do in terms of suicide bombing to be reprehensible.
More verses of the Quran, to put relations with non-Muslims in context:
029.046 And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better
(than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and
injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in
that whic
h came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him we bow (in
Islam)."
002.062 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish
(scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the
Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on
them shall be no
fear, nor shall they grieve.
060.007 It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and
those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things); And
God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
002.256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from
Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most
trustworthy hand- hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all
things.
It's not so much that they believe all ideologies and societies should be pacifist in their thinking or functioning..It's more that they resent the fact that there are people who aren't docile when faced with their own aggression. The Native Americans (wrongly labeled 'Indians') were subject to genocide on American soil. Centuries of oppression of black people, and of women went on in their own society. And yet they dare to pass judgment on other cultures that have in fact been less brutal than they've been themselves.
I've never argued Muslims to be perfect, or Islam to be a docile or passive ideology. Nor have I argued that Muslims are without fault today or ever have been.
What I would argue, is that the West aren't the "good guys". Despite her gentle voice, Hrsi Ali has voiced a love for violence that isn't a far cry different in its reason or logic than that exposed by the likes of Bin Laden himself. What I would argue is that hate comes from both sides. Both sides have killed, needlessly.
And whatever you say of the Qur'an, don't doubt that I know what terrible things are said in the Old Testament of the Bible.
I work with Somalis everyday and find them (generally) to be warm, compassionate, hard-working people... but very fundamentalist in their beliefs and hard to relate to on that front. They tell me they delpore violence and desire peace... but I have such difficulty reconciling that desire with the current state of affairs in their homeland. Why is it that people who desire peace can't seem to achieve it even in their own country? Is it just that all the peace-loving folks have fled to America and abandoned the homeland to the fanatical warlords?
I try not to get into the religion discussion with my Somali neighbors at all (check that topic at the door, please) because it's pointless to even try to discuss it. They're not closed-minded on other topics necessarily, but they are when it comes to their religious views. I've known a few exceptions to that rule but again, they seem to prefer the shadows to the lime-light. Maybe they are letting fear rule them, I don't know.